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Scales in Sor

Douglas Seth

5/29/2011 3:44:00 PM

Hello,
To help the guitar related momentum, Sor in his Method advocated
slurring scale passages. Why do we hear so little of this done in
modern interpretations of his music? Most of the time, at the very
end of the Mozart Variations (an obvious place to slur the scale
passages-I chose this piece because everyone knows it), the ascending
scale runs are articulated not slurred by many modern players.
Discuss.
30 Answers

himmelhoch@verizon.net

5/29/2011 4:12:00 PM

0

On May 29, 11:43 am, Douglas Seth <douglasse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> To help the guitar related momentum, Sor in his Method advocated
> slurring scale passages.  Why do we hear so little of this done in
> modern interpretations of his music?  Most of the time, at the very
> end of the Mozart Variations (an obvious place to slur the scale
> passages-I chose this piece because everyone knows it), the ascending
> scale runs are articulated not slurred by many modern players.
> Discuss.

I think it is because of Segovia and his drive to make the guitar
concert hall-worthy. Slurs just don't project as well as plucked
scales. But it's true that in the opus 9 variations, he started the
trend of doing the first of those two scales plucked and the second
slurred.

S

Douglas Seth

5/29/2011 4:37:00 PM

0

On May 29, 12:12 pm, "himmelh...@verizon.net" <himmelh...@verizon.net>
wrote:
> On May 29, 11:43 am, Douglas Seth <douglasse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> > To help the guitar related momentum, Sor in his Method advocated
> > slurring scale passages.  Why do we hear so little of this done in
> > modern interpretations of his music?  Most of the time, at the very
> > end of the Mozart Variations (an obvious place to slur the scale
> > passages-I chose this piece because everyone knows it), the ascending
> > scale runs are articulated not slurred by many modern players.
> > Discuss.
>
> I think it is because of Segovia and his drive to make the guitar
> concert hall-worthy.  Slurs just don't project as well as plucked
> scales. But it's true that in the opus 9 variations, he started the
> trend of doing the first of those two scales plucked and the second
> slurred.
>
> S

I agree Seth, this is one of the reasons and of course much of the
rational of Segovia's technique was "to be heard" in the concert
hall. Even a bigger question- Is the guitar a concert instrument at
all at this point?

DS

matanyao@gmail.com

5/29/2011 4:52:00 PM

0

On May 29, 11:43 am, Douglas Seth <douglasse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> To help the guitar related momentum, Sor in his Method advocated
> slurring scale passages.  Why do we hear so little of this done in
> modern interpretations of his music?  Most of the time, at the very
> end of the Mozart Variations (an obvious place to slur the scale
> passages-I chose this piece because everyone knows it), the ascending
> scale runs are articulated not slurred by many modern players.
> Discuss.

You misunderstand the Sor method. Specifically, Sor does not advocate
anything. He simply reports on what he had found to be useful for
himself. In the case of scales, he does not rule out non-legato
scales, but avoids giving his own preference here and suggests that
Aguado's teaching on the subject would be useful.

MO.

folios3@yahoo.com

5/29/2011 6:11:00 PM

0

Just yesterday I was reading through your edition of the material from
the 1825 method by Aguado as well as the 1843 method. I was
interested to see how many slurs Aguado uses in scale passages ...the
Schott edition of 24 studies takes many of them out changing the point
of the studies.

These days, guitarists are obsessed with fast articulated scales and
waste lots of time working on getting them up to unnecessarily fast
speeds.
Better to use the time learning repertoire of which there are
countless hours of great music with nary an articulated scale above
120.
In fact, if I was advising a composer writing for guitar I would tell
him to avoid scales without slurs over 120 and not to go over 144 in
short scales.
of course virtuoso can do over 144 but it is not in the center range
of guitar playing.

BTW,slurs project well if the left hand is up to the task.




On May 29, 12:52 pm, "matan...@gmail.com" <matan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 29, 11:43 am, Douglas Seth <douglasse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> > To help the guitar related momentum, Sor in his Method advocated
> > slurring scale passages.  Why do we hear so little of this done in
> > modern interpretations of his music?  Most of the time, at the very
> > end of the Mozart Variations (an obvious place to slur the scale
> > passages-I chose this piece because everyone knows it), the ascending
> > scale runs are articulated not slurred by many modern players.
> > Discuss.
>
> You misunderstand the Sor method. Specifically, Sor does not advocate
> anything. He simply reports on what he had found to be useful for
> himself. In the case of scales, he does not rule out non-legato
> scales, but avoids giving his own preference here and suggests that
> Aguado's teaching on the subject would be useful.
>
> MO.

Carey

5/29/2011 7:12:00 PM

0



Douglas Seth wrote:
> Hello,
> To help the guitar related momentum, Sor in his Method advocated
> slurring scale passages. Why do we hear so little of this done in
> modern interpretations of his music? Most of the time, at the very
> end of the Mozart Variations (an obvious place to slur the scale
> passages-I chose this piece because everyone knows it), the ascending
> scale runs are articulated not slurred by many modern players.
> Discuss.

Slurred notes played on the guitar of Sor's day typically sounded more
like
the plucked note than they do on the present-day instrument- slurring
scalar/ melodic passages on a Romantic guitar feels and sounds very
natural.

folios3@yahoo.com

5/29/2011 8:37:00 PM

0

On May 29, 3:11 pm, Carey <carey_1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Douglas Seth wrote:
> > Hello,
> > To help the guitar related momentum, Sor in his Method advocated
> > slurring scale passages.  Why do we hear so little of this done in
> > modern interpretations of his music?  Most of the time, at the very
> > end of the Mozart Variations (an obvious place to slur the scale
> > passages-I chose this piece because everyone knows it), the ascending
> > scale runs are articulated not slurred by many modern players.
> > Discuss.
>
> Slurred notes played on the guitar of Sor's day typically sounded more
> like
> the plucked note than they do on the present-day instrument- slurring
> scalar/ melodic passages on a Romantic guitar feels and sounds very
> natural.

It's really not until very recently that non slurred scale passages
have become the ideal. If I had to, I would put the start with the
Romeros
Segovia,Williams Bream generation have/had a wider articulation
palette than more recent players.
I think what you say about 19th century is a bit of an
exaggeration...slurs don't sound THAT different.

Che

5/29/2011 8:48:00 PM

0

On May 29, 1:11 pm, "foli...@yahoo.com" <foli...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> In fact, if I was advising a composer writing for guitar I would tell
> him to avoid scales without slurs over 120 and not to go over 144 in
> short scales.
> of course virtuoso can do over 144 but it is not in the center range
> of guitar playing.

I've heard this view expressed since the early 70's, mostly by those
who can't play scales at high velocities. How do virtuose become
virtuose staying the comfort zone of center range? How many guitar
composers are interested in mediocracy and average competence?

>
> BTW,slurs project well if the left hand is up to the task.

Yes.

Che

5/29/2011 8:49:00 PM

0

On May 29, 2:11 pm, Carey <carey_1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Douglas Seth wrote:
> > Hello,
> > To help the guitar related momentum, Sor in his Method advocated
> > slurring scale passages.  Why do we hear so little of this done in
> > modern interpretations of his music?  Most of the time, at the very
> > end of the Mozart Variations (an obvious place to slur the scale
> > passages-I chose this piece because everyone knows it), the ascending
> > scale runs are articulated not slurred by many modern players.
> > Discuss.
>
> Slurred notes played on the guitar of Sor's day typically sounded more
> like
> the plucked note than they do on the present-day instrument- slurring
> scalar/ melodic passages on a Romantic guitar feels and sounds very
> natural.

Or an arch-guitar.

folios3@yahoo.com

5/29/2011 9:00:00 PM

0

At a certain point you have to make a decision on what kind of rep.
you want to play and what kind of skills you need to develop to play
it.
You can spend your life on the complete works of Bach ,Henze,the
entire Segovia and Bream repertoire, the entire baroque guitar rep.
the entire Sor,Giuliani,Coste,Regondrep. and nver have to play a scale
at 180.16th at 144 is enough. Yet the concern to do more than this is
completely out of proportion to the reality unless you want to play
SOME Rodrigo type stuff
One would do well spending the time on the left hand, voicing,dynamic
control,tone colors and chamber music.

even the best of the fastest players show weakness in some these
areas. A choice they made.


On May 29, 4:48 pm, Che <Comanchetr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On May 29, 1:11 pm, "foli...@yahoo.com" <foli...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > In fact, if I was advising a composer writing for guitar I would tell
> > him to avoid scales without slurs over 120 and not to go over 144 in
> > short scales.
> > of course virtuoso can do over 144 but it is not in the center range
> > of guitar playing.
>
> I've heard this view expressed since the early 70's, mostly by those
> who can't play scales at high velocities.  How do virtuose become
> virtuose staying the comfort zone of center range? How many guitar
> composers are interested in mediocracy and average competence?
>
>
>
> > BTW,slurs project well if the left hand is up to the task.
>
> Yes.

folios3@yahoo.com

5/29/2011 9:10:00 PM

0

Even tuba players have their pathological desires:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S...


not for the orchestration books!!!


On May 29, 5:00 pm, "foli...@yahoo.com" <foli...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> At a certain point you have to make a decision on what kind of rep.
> you want to play and what kind of skills you need to develop to play
> it.
>  You can spend your life on the complete works of  Bach ,Henze,the
> entire Segovia and Bream repertoire, the entire baroque guitar rep.
> the entire Sor,Giuliani,Coste,Regondrep. and nver have to play a scale
> at 180.16th at 144 is enough. Yet the concern to do more than this is
> completely out of proportion to the reality unless you want to play
> SOME Rodrigo type stuff
>  One would do well spending the time on the left hand, voicing,dynamic
> control,tone colors and chamber music.
>
> even the best of the fastest players show weakness in some these
> areas. A  choice they made.
>
> On May 29, 4:48 pm, Che <Comanchetr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 29, 1:11 pm, "foli...@yahoo.com" <foli...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > In fact, if I was advising a composer writing for guitar I would tell
> > > him to avoid scales without slurs over 120 and not to go over 144 in
> > > short scales.
> > > of course virtuoso can do over 144 but it is not in the center range
> > > of guitar playing.
>
> > I've heard this view expressed since the early 70's, mostly by those
> > who can't play scales at high velocities.  How do virtuose become
> > virtuose staying the comfort zone of center range? How many guitar
> > composers are interested in mediocracy and average competence?
>
> > > BTW,slurs project well if the left hand is up to the task.
>
> > Yes.