Usa Forum - Dans quelle état sera Liège en 2020 ?

Cal Bear '66

1/21/2005 3:28:00 PM

Voir ici :

http://www.lalibre.be/article.phtml?id=3&subid=85&art...

Une vue extérieure sur le pays de Liège

11 Answers

Cal Bear '66

1/21/2005 3:47:00 PM

titrer sur "quelle état" ça fait tout de suite mauvais genre...

que cela n'empêche pas de lire cet article qui en met plein la figure aux
barons liégeois

j'imagine que beaucoup d'intervenants sur SCB ne seront pas d'accord avec
les conclusions puisque presque tout le monde ici avait soutenu la fermeture
d'une partie des activités de cockerill. ce que le rapport dénonce

"L'Anti-Oedipe" <Xxx@xxx.org> a écrit dans le message de news:
35clcrF42kmu3U1@individual.net...
> Voir ici :
>
> http://www.lalibre.be/article.phtml?id=3&subid=85&art...
>
> Une vue extérieure sur le pays de Liège
>
>

moogli

1/21/2005 5:06:00 PM

"L'Anti-Oedipe" <Xxx@xxx.org> a écrit dans le message de news:
35clcrF42kmu3U1@individual.net...

Salut.

> Une vue extérieure sur le pays de Liège

2020 ?
On s'en fout ! :)

moogli

embert.cam

1/21/2005 5:18:00 PM

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:06:11 +0100, "moogli" <moogli@moogli> :

>"L'Anti-Oedipe" <Xxx@xxx.org> a écrit dans le message de news:
>35clcrF42kmu3U1@individual.net...
>
>Salut.
>
>> Une vue extérieure sur le pays de Liège
>
>2020 ?
>On s'en fout ! :)

Oui on s'en fout.
En 2020 Liège sera gérée par la France

>moogli
>

AlexMilman

10/13/2012 2:32:00 AM

On Oct 12, 3:35 pm, The Old Man <Braung...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Friday, October 12, 2012 1:08:59 PM UTC-4, Alex Milman wrote:
> > On Oct 12, 2:38 am, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabaynever.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > > Despite the modern bad press, Cortez was the emperor of the Aztecs. By
>
> > > Aztec law and custom the women owned everything. As was far from
>
> > > unheardof among the upper class Aztecs, Cortez killed Moctezuma and
>
> > > married his land owning wife and became the lawful Emperor of the Aztecs.
>
> > Taking into an account that he defeated the Aztecs with the help of
>
> > the neighbors who hated Aztec guts, this could not necessarily be such
>
> > a brilliant idea.
>
> > > This was not just a theory. For years he fulfilled the duties and
>
> > > responsibilities of emperor such as adjudicating disputes among other
>
> > > Aztec nobility.
>
> > > But being a Spaniard and for some reason not able to tell the King to
>
> > > EF himself and rule Mexico the history reads as the Spanish conquest of
>
> > > Mexico.
>
> > > Now it seems to me if he had been able to get cannon, powder, swords
>
> > > and Papal blessing in return for Aztec gold
>
> > From whom? The Spaniards were the only potential suppliers in the
>
> > area.
>
> > > he could have told the king
>
> > > to EF off.
>
> > For how long would he hold without reinforcements coming from Spain?
>
> > There was similar attempt made later in the South America by Lope de
>
> > Aguirre. You may find on Wiki how it ended.
>
> > > Assuming the Pope is a gimme, could Cortez have gotten the
>
> > > basic armament of his day
>
> > > and if so does the Spanish empire die with a
>
> > > few minor holdings in the Carib?
>
> > You are totally ignoring conquest on the Inca state and most of the
>
> > Central and South America.
>
> In addition, the Pope is going to demand conversion of the Natives in return for ANY help.

Not that he could offer any besides his blessing.

>This will not sit well with the Natives, or their nobelity. And (even if the Incan conquest is thwarted) you might see Spain turning THEIR backs on the Papacy, ala England's Tudors. Or you might see the Pope have a sudden and totally regrettable "accident"....

Or changing his mind when military circumstances in Italy become
'inconvenient' for him.

Matt Giwer

10/14/2012 2:37:00 AM

On 10/12/2012 1:08 PM, Alex Milman wrote:
> On Oct 12, 2:38 am, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabaynever.rr.com> wrote:
>> Despite the modern bad press, Cortez was the emperor of the Aztecs. By
>> Aztec law and custom the women owned everything. As was far from
>> unheardof among the upper class Aztecs, Cortez killed Moctezuma and
>> married his land owning wife and became the lawful Emperor of the Aztecs.

> Taking into an account that he defeated the Aztecs with the help of
> the neighbors who hated Aztec guts, this could not necessarily be such
> a brilliant idea.

It is not recorded that he rewarded them for their help. BUT one of
their complaints was taking prisoners for sacrifice. Cortez ended that
practice. One would assume he sold them on the idea that was their
reward. As it was something the Church was going to make him do that
might have been his main promise to get their support.

>> This was not just a theory. For years he fulfilled the duties and
>> responsibilities of emperor such as adjudicating disputes among other
>> Aztec nobility.
>>
>> But being a Spaniard and for some reason not able to tell the King to
>> EF himself and rule Mexico the history reads as the Spanish conquest of
>> Mexico.

>> Now it seems to me if he had been able to get cannon, powder, swords
>> and Papal blessing in return for Aztec gold

> From whom? The Spaniards were the only potential suppliers in the
> area.

English privateers, Spanish or Portuguese pirates, vast wealth offered
to iron mongers and powder makers. Top of my head ideas. I did not want
to poison the idea pool.

Then there is strategic. He tells the king to EF off and another
adventurer decides to replace him after getting all the weapons he needs
for invasion. Unintended consequences have a lot of armed natives
offering their services to the highest bidder. Once there are arms in
the region it devolves to tactical usage and luck of the battlefield.

>> he could have told the king
>> to EF off.

> For how long would he hold without reinforcements coming from Spain?
> There was similar attempt made later in the South America by Lope de
> Aguirre. You may find on Wiki how it ended.

As emperor of the Aztecs he was not challenged in the role when he
ordered peasants into the mines to produce his gold for his use. It was
his, or his wife's at least, by law and custom and ordering labor was
also his lawful power. Why does he need reinforcements?

In the worst case locally he is out of powder and has to rule as did
Moctezuma which was otherwise a safe throne.

>> Assuming the Pope is a gimme, could Cortez have gotten the
>> basic armament of his day
>> and if so does the Spanish empire die with a
>> few minor holdings in the Carib?

> You are totally ignoring conquest on the Inca state and most of the
> Central and South America.

I was introducing the fact that the Aztecs viewed him as the lawful
emperor and that he did in fact fulfill that role for the Aztecs.
Therefore he could have rallied the empire to do what Moctezuma did not
like fight any other Spaniards the moment they land instead of sending
presents and making to resistance at all until they are almost to the
capital.

If Cortez had been fought from day one he would have lost by attrition
and would never have been able to form any local alliances and he would
have failed completely. His force would have been gone by the second or
third battle at most as there would have been no natives on his side.

--
What shape were women's bodies before
the hourglass was invented?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4422
http://www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-po... a16
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. a16
Sat, Oct 13, 2012 10:11:46 PM

Matt Giwer

10/14/2012 2:44:00 AM

On 10/12/2012 3:35 PM, The Old Man wrote:
....
> In addition, the Pope is going to demand conversion of the Natives
in return for ANY help. This will not sit well with the Natives, or
their nobelity. And (even if the Incan conquest is thwarted) you might
see Spain turning THEIR backs on the Papacy, ala England's Tudors.
Or you might see the Pope have a sudden and totally regrettable
"accident"....

No problem with that demand. He guarantees safe passage to all the
missionaries the Pope sends. That is all he needs to do. Their success
is up to the missionaries. The peasants didn't have much of a theology.
Virgin Mary is just another name for Painted Lady. As for the nobility,
human sacrifice is a dead issue with or without conversion. The only
real conflict would be with the priests whose civil power is not
recorded. But it is not like they could rally the peasants to bring back
human sacrifice of peasants.

--
Americans are so dumb they fell for Iraq nuclear weapons
program and no for the Iran nuclear weapons program.
The Iron Webmaster, 4409
http://www.giwersworld.org/palestine/ans... a9
Sat, Oct 13, 2012 10:37:11 PM

Matt Giwer

10/14/2012 2:46:00 AM

On 10/12/2012 10:31 PM, Alex Milman wrote:
> On Oct 12, 3:35 pm, The Old Man <Braung...@verizon.net> wrote:

....
>> In addition, the Pope is going to demand conversion of the Natives in return for ANY help.
>
> Not that he could offer any besides his blessing.

Might I suggest the man who divided the New World between Spain and
Portugal had a bit more authority than that?

>> This will not sit well with the Natives, or their nobelity. And (even if the Incan conquest is thwarted) you might see Spain turning THEIR backs on the Papacy, ala England's Tudors. Or you might see the Pope have a sudden and totally regrettable "accident"....
>
> Or changing his mind when military circumstances in Italy become
> 'inconvenient' for him.

You mean the Pope might not find a use for gold from Cortez to win in
Italy?

--
Hodie tertio Idus Novembres MMXII est
-- The Ferric Webcaesar
http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/bomb... a5
Sat, Oct 13, 2012 10:44:18 PM

AlexMilman

10/14/2012 5:48:00 PM

On Oct 13, 10:47 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabaynever.rr.com> wrote:
> On 10/12/2012 10:31 PM, Alex Milman wrote:
>
> > On Oct 12, 3:35 pm, The Old Man <Braung...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> ...
>
> >> In addition, the Pope is going to demand conversion of the Natives in return for ANY help.
>
> > Not that he could offer any besides his blessing.
>
> Might I suggest the man who divided the New World between Spain and
> Portugal had a bit more authority than that?

You may but who would listen?

>
> >> This will not sit well with the Natives, or their nobelity. And (even if the Incan conquest is thwarted) you might see Spain turning THEIR backs on the Papacy, ala England's Tudors. Or you might see the Pope have a sudden and totally regrettable "accident"....
>
> > Or changing his mind when military circumstances in Italy become
> > 'inconvenient' for him.
>
> You mean the Pope might not find a use for gold from Cortez to win in
> Italy?

Are you kidding?

AlexMilman

10/14/2012 5:50:00 PM

On Oct 13, 10:47 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabaynever.rr.com> wrote:
> On 10/12/2012 1:08 PM, Alex Milman wrote:
>

> >> Now it seems to me if he had been able to get cannon, powder, swords
> >> and Papal blessing in return for Aztec gold
> > From whom? The Spaniards were the only potential suppliers in the
> > area.
>
> English privateers, Spanish or Portuguese pirates, vast wealth offered
> to iron mongers and powder makers. Top of my head ideas. I did not want
> to poison the idea pool.

Your ideas usually unrelated to the real life, especially as far as
the timing is involved.

Matt Giwer

10/15/2012 2:36:00 AM

On 10/14/2012 1:47 PM, Alex Milman wrote:
> On Oct 13, 10:47 pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabaynever.rr.com> wrote:
>> On 10/12/2012 10:31 PM, Alex Milman wrote:
>>
>>> On Oct 12, 3:35 pm, The Old Man <Braung...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>>> In addition, the Pope is going to demand conversion of the Natives in return for ANY help.
>>
>>> Not that he could offer any besides his blessing.
>>
>> Might I suggest the man who divided the New World between Spain and
>> Portugal had a bit more authority than that?
>
> You may but who would listen?

As long as there was Papal states the popes behaved as any nobility and
were always pliable with wealth. It was only with Protestantism that
papal wealth became and issue for some.

>>>> This will not sit well with the Natives, or their nobelity. And (even if the Incan conquest is thwarted) you might see Spain turning THEIR backs on the Papacy, ala England's Tudors. Or you might see the Pope have a sudden and totally regrettable "accident"....
>>
>>> Or changing his mind when military circumstances in Italy become
>>> 'inconvenient' for him.
>>
>> You mean the Pope might not find a use for gold from Cortez to win in
>> Italy?
>
> Are you kidding?

Are you a priest defending the papacy? Where did the Pope get the money
to wage is wars in Italy? The more gold the larger the armies and more
he could bribe into surrender.

--
Like the Iraq war over its nuclear weapons program
Israel and Jews are not behind the Iran war either.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4418
http://www.giwersworld.org/environment/... a2
Sun, Oct 14, 2012 2:04:36 AM

soc.culture.belgium

Dans quelle état sera Liège en 2020 ?

Cal Bear '66

Cal Bear '66

moogli

embert.cam

AlexMilman

Matt Giwer

Matt Giwer

Matt Giwer

AlexMilman

AlexMilman

Matt Giwer

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