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Welfare Epics

Fvert

3/20/2012 4:06:00 PM

From what I read, this issue will go away in the next expansion (iv the
devs are going to change the way pvp stats work and make the gear
essentially useless for pve), but for now I tend to gear up via Welfare
epics, ie purples bought with honor. On my main server most of my toons
are well over half geared with ilvl 390 BG gear. I try to do WG and TB
weekly on my lvl 85 toons for the honor and the weekly quests and
average 2-3x per week on the pvp dailies on the coast of Grizzly Hills
(50 honor x 4 per day).

I am NOT doing this to appear more geared for raids and heroics. For a
variety of reasons I am just not getting to heroics and have done no
raids yet in Cata. It just seems to be the best gear I can get for PVE
and of course it is relevant to BGs which I enjoy.

Here is the question: Is there an addon or a rule of thumb to tell when
the lower ilvl gear might be better for pve activities than the higher
pvp gear with the wasted stat of resilience? If it is within 15-20 ilvls
I will sometimes keep the lower pve gear but it would be nice to know
for sure where the tipping point is.


Brian
28 Answers

Jason Tinling

3/20/2012 9:55:00 PM

0

On Tuesday, March 20, 2012 9:05:40 AM UTC-7, Fvert wrote:
> From what I read, this issue will go away in the next expansion (iv the
> devs are going to change the way pvp stats work and make the gear
> essentially useless for pve), but for now I tend to gear up via Welfare
> epics, ie purples bought with honor. On my main server most of my toons
> are well over half geared with ilvl 390 BG gear. I try to do WG and TB
> weekly on my lvl 85 toons for the honor and the weekly quests and
> average 2-3x per week on the pvp dailies on the coast of Grizzly Hills
> (50 honor x 4 per day).
>
> I am NOT doing this to appear more geared for raids and heroics. For a
> variety of reasons I am just not getting to heroics and have done no
> raids yet in Cata. It just seems to be the best gear I can get for PVE
> and of course it is relevant to BGs which I enjoy.
>
> Here is the question: Is there an addon or a rule of thumb to tell when
> the lower ilvl gear might be better for pve activities than the higher
> pvp gear with the wasted stat of resilience? If it is within 15-20 ilvls
> I will sometimes keep the lower pve gear but it would be nice to know
> for sure where the tipping point is.
>
>
> Brian

If you're max level, and not doing heroics or raids, what PvE are you doing that you need "the best gear I can get" for?

John Gordon

3/20/2012 10:08:00 PM

0

In <11915249.812.1332280494792.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynkk37> Jason Tinling <jason.tinling@gmail.com> writes:

> If you're max level, and not doing heroics or raids, what PvE are you
> doing that you need "the best gear I can get" for?

Is it wrong to want better gear? You seem to imply so.

--
John Gordon A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
gordon@panix.com B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
-- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"

k

3/21/2012 2:39:00 AM

0


"John Gordon" <gordon@panix.com> wrote in message
news:jkav3m$r44$1@reader1.panix.com...
> In <11915249.812.1332280494792.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynkk37>
> Jason Tinling <jason.tinling@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> If you're max level, and not doing heroics or raids, what PvE are you
>> doing that you need "the best gear I can get" for?
>
> Is it wrong to want better gear? You seem to imply so.


interjecting

I've seen a tinge of resentment creep across even the most generous and
helpful of players when they, who raided through BC and Wrath and did all
the dailies for arcanums, ground rep with factions for specific items etc,
encounter some of the heavily geared new players .

The newer players who appear ungemmed and unenchanted in LFG or raids, no
shoulder of head enchants (and when asked lol and say they don't do dailies
lolz too boring lolz, or who have no idea about such enchants)

It's not just the gear, it's the healers who are unaware they can purge or
decurse, the rogues who assure people they have no interrupts, the tanks who
seem unable to mitigate damage and try to out dps the dps. the dps who do 3k
on Ozumat with heroism up. Oh sure, it takes people time to settle into
their roles and learn their toons but it's kind of sad that some people hit
85 and seem oblivious of how to play. Sad can become annoying when they
turn up in LFG or raids. possibly as annoying as I imagine it must be for
PvPers when Childrens week BG's are invaded by clueless PvEers..

I know twilight randoms are stupid easy now, but when you hit Queen Azshara
in Well of Eternity with a group in raidfinder gear doing 4 or 5k dps, no
one interrupts and it becomes a wipefest, this is when the resentment starts
to flare. WHY are these people playing so poorly? it seems a lot of people
expect to faceroll and are surprised when it goes wrong.

There's also the let down when a guild invests time and effort carrying
someone through heroics and gears them to enter raids, only to see them take
their purples off to farm leather and collect pets. No it's not that one
person, but after doing it over and over again, well. Kinda like when you
help a guildie level their prof by giving them/selling cheap stacks of mats
and then you notice a couple of weeks later they're back on asking for more
help in a different prof and you notice they just dropped the prof you
helped them level to 525 and are 'trying' something new

It's no ones fault but Blizzards though, they've allowed people to rush to
endgame, and we all know how things turn out when goals are easily
achieved..

I think a nice fix would be rather than showing up to your trainer and
paying the gold and seeing a whoosh of gold light to learn a skill there
should be a quest attached - "Go out there and sheep 4 enemies" .. "Use your
Icetrap to hold this elite while we send reinforcements".. "save the
villagers by healing and dispelling their curse" or such. I know it'd be
annoying for people in a rush but -

As to your original question about juding PvE gear V PvP it's not that hard
if you know your stat weights and they can be looked up easily enough. then
just do the maths

for example my mage, currently it's unchanged : Intellect > 17% Spell Hit >
spell power> mastery > crit > haste
Int: 5.16. Hit: 3.21.(to cap) Spell pwr: 2.8. Mastery: 1.4. Crit: 1.34.
Haste: 1.28 with Res =0

just multiply all the stats by their appropriate weights and you'll end up
knowing which has the highest number, highest number = best :) If the PvP
piece betters the PvE item, stick with it.

Re all the above, I'm not refering to you or anyone else specifically - I
don't know you and you may be one of those people who dressed only in greens
can outshine others in purples.. I've seen that often enough to not judge
others by their GS ;)


(I'm still thinking of a person who pst me a few days back noticing my
wrath-earned Kingslayer title, asking if I can 'get that title' for them
"Can we just 2 man it?" - maybe they can, but I know I'm not that good! )




Fvert

3/21/2012 6:03:00 AM

0

In article <iLidnZXZXv3OovTSnZ2dnUVZ_vudnZ2d@westnet.com.au>,
"k" <felafel@PING.com> wrote:

> As to your original question about juding PvE gear V PvP it's not that hard
> if you know your stat weights and they can be looked up easily enough. then
> just do the maths
>
> for example my mage, currently it's unchanged : Intellect > 17% Spell Hit >
> spell power> mastery > crit > haste
> Int: 5.16. Hit: 3.21.(to cap) Spell pwr: 2.8. Mastery: 1.4. Crit: 1.34.
> Haste: 1.28 with Res =0
>
> just multiply all the stats by their appropriate weights and you'll end up
> knowing which has the highest number, highest number = best :) If the PvP
> piece betters the PvE item, stick with it.



Thanks. Without doing the math I mostly looked at when the key stat
(like AGI for a Hunter) had a big enough difference and figured the
other stats were gravy to help overcome the useless Resilience in PVE
situations.

For what I am doing I don't' NEED the best gear available but it sure is
nice to kill stuff quicker on dailies or be a bit higher up the charts
on LFG groups.

As I mentioned earlier, I am not trying to fool a group by having higher
ilvl gear. I do gem and enchant and inscribe, etc which actually keeps
me pretty busy with the honor I earn each week. Fortunately I have toons
with level 525 in all the crafting professions.

I like to see the content but have been taking it slow since I came back
to WoW (I got booted the patch before Cata for not having hardware up to
snuff. I got back in in late Spring of last year when I upgraded.) Given
the horror stories I hear on this newsgroup of PUGs gone bad I want to
be on the safe side of being over geared than under geared.

It was easy to decide to use some of the PVE stuff that dropped off
holiday bosses vs Season 10 PVP gear. It wasn't a huge difference. I was
having a harder time being sure which was better when it came time to
start replacing stuff when the season 11 PVP stuff came out. Your
comments help. Thanks.


Brian

Shiflet

3/21/2012 2:24:00 PM

0

On Mar 21, 1:03 am, Fvert <fv...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> It was easy to decide to use some of the PVE stuff that dropped off
> holiday bosses vs Season 10 PVP gear. It wasn't a huge difference. I was
> having a harder time being sure which was better when it came time to
> start replacing stuff when the season 11 PVP stuff came out. Your
> comments help. Thanks.

If you're not raiding, PvP gear is just fine. PvE gear of the same(or
higher) ilvl will be better, but PvE gear a more than a few ilvls
lower will generally be worse than the PvP gear. The difference is
most important when you're raiding, where a 100 dps increase might be
the difference between a win and a 1% wipe. Likewise, PvP gear doesn't
have much Hit on it(being hit capped is generally considered high
priority for every dps spec), and you need significantly more hit to
fight raid bosses than you do to fight normal mobs, which is another
downside. For healers, PvP gear often has less spirit, which means
less mana regen. For PvP, this is acceptable, where fights are
generally expected to be fairly brief giving you time to drink between
skirmishes, for long drawn out boss fights it can be more problematic.

Basically, a 346 blue is gonna be worse than a 406 PvP piece, period,
but a 391 PvE piece is probably gonna be better than a 406 PvP piece
despite the difference in ilvl. The extra crit/haste/mastery on the
PvE piece will generally add slightly more to your DPS than the higher
primary stat on the higher ilvl PvP piece.

> Brian

S U N risr

3/21/2012 4:15:00 PM

0

On 3/20/2012 12:05 PM, Fvert wrote:
> From what I read, this issue will go away in the next expansion (iv the
> devs are going to change the way pvp stats work and make the gear
> essentially useless for pve), but for now I tend to gear up via Welfare
> epics, ie purples bought with honor. On my main server most of my toons
> are well over half geared with ilvl 390 BG gear. I try to do WG and TB
> weekly on my lvl 85 toons for the honor and the weekly quests and
> average 2-3x per week on the pvp dailies on the coast of Grizzly Hills
> (50 honor x 4 per day).
>
> I am NOT doing this to appear more geared for raids and heroics. For a
> variety of reasons I am just not getting to heroics and have done no
> raids yet in Cata. It just seems to be the best gear I can get for PVE
> and of course it is relevant to BGs which I enjoy.
>
> Here is the question: Is there an addon or a rule of thumb to tell when
> the lower ilvl gear might be better for pve activities than the higher
> pvp gear with the wasted stat of resilience? If it is within 15-20 ilvls
> I will sometimes keep the lower pve gear but it would be nice to know
> for sure where the tipping point is.
>
>
> Brian

While ilevel is the key now, a while back the old "gearscore" system was
used as measurement. Although it's called "playerscore" now, many
still use it not so much for the actual "score" of a player, but because
it has several nice features for quickly ascertaining on a simple mouse
click of a player in addition to the score & i-level, how many pcs of
PvP gear they are wearing, and if any gear is missing enchants, gemmed,
etc. without actually inspecting them. If you do inspect them, you get
not only the info on their gear, but the toons experience as well.
Everything from how many raids and PvP battlegrounds that toon has
done, what bosses they've cleared and how many times, how many times
they've dueled and lost/won....For example, it might be nice to see that
toon has done Warsong Gultch 700 times and won 10 (what that means to
you, I don't know but it's there - lol) ...almost like having an
instant "wow-heroes" in a in game click. For example my mage has a
392 ilevel, which equates to a 10,500 GS on the old gearscore system.

The reason I'm bringing this up is that one of the things they added
since it was religiously used by everyone back in wrath is the PvP
conversion number. It converts your PvE score into a PvP score (and
visa-verse) without actually changing. So for example, I can see
without changing out of my PvE gear, that my 10500 GS equates to an 8800
PvP score. It works the other way as well. Basically, what if means
is that if I change to my PvP gear and went into a raid or dungeon, even
though my ilevel was high, it'd be like walking in with an equivalent
set of 8800 GS PvE gear when compared to the other PvE geared players.
(which equates I think to around a 360ish ilevel.)

In addition, I think it does give numbers for each individual pc of gear
to let you know when you hover over the gear, it's PvE and PvP
equivalent and what it would do based on my description above. I think
that was your question in your last paragraph. That said, you just
would have to get used to seeing the playerscore numbers and getting
used to what that means if you never used it before and converting what
that means for you in ilevel. Kinda like getting used to metric and
imperial measurements.....You get used to seeing that 60 mph is about 95
kph if you see it all the time....

I know that bringing up playerscore tends to stir the sh@t with people
who hated that system, but if you look at the add-on for everything it
does to help *you* make some choices and decisions, I find it's quite a
useful tool and might be something you might want to look at...

Jason Tinling

3/21/2012 4:51:00 PM

0

On Tuesday, March 20, 2012 3:07:50 PM UTC-7, John wrote:
> In <11915249.812.1332280494792.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynkk37> Jason Tinling <jason.tinling@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > If you're max level, and not doing heroics or raids, what PvE are you
> > doing that you need "the best gear I can get" for?
>
> Is it wrong to want better gear? You seem to imply so.
>
> --
> John Gordon A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
> gordon@panix.com B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
> -- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"

Not at all, John. I was simply curious what the motivation for min-maxing PvP versus PvE gear was, if Fvert was primarily playing the game at a level that didn't require it.

If all you're interested in doing is dailies, regular dungeon LFG, and maybe questing, the difference between 390 PvP gear versus 383 PvE gear is not only of little consequence, but pretty much negligible in the uses listed above, and very much overkill. At that point, decisions can be made on aesthetics as much as statistics, since both will have similar effects on the outcome.

And, the answer can be as straightforward as "I want to top the DPS meters every LFG run" or "I like being able to 2-shot mobs doing dailies, rather than 3-shot them." To each their own, and all that. To me personally, those are insufficient motivation to min-max gear, but I was curious to know what Fvert's motivation was.

Fvert

3/22/2012 2:32:00 AM

0

In article
<18128334.1739.1332348687655.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynnk21>,
Jason Tinling <jason.tinling@gmail.com> wrote:

> And, the answer can be as straightforward as "I want to top the DPS meters
> every LFG run" or "I like being able to 2-shot mobs doing dailies, rather
> than 3-shot them." To each their own, and all that. To me personally, those
> are insufficient motivation to min-max gear, but I was curious to know what
> Fvert's motivation was.


Essentially max the dps potential I can attain with the gear I have
access. For PVE that manifests itself in dailies, dungeons,
achievements, etc with almost no raiding. I don't agonize over the
difference as I achieve the same results either way, just faster with
better gear.

I will continue the trek towards ilvl 390 gear (season 11) in as many
slots on as many toons as I can. I was wondering if there was a rule of
thumb to follow. I did get some help here. Thanks.


Brian

ald

3/22/2012 2:36:00 AM

0

On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 07:23:41 -0700 (PDT), Shiflet
<rshiflet@charter.net> wrote:

>On Mar 21, 1:03 am, Fvert <fv...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> It was easy to decide to use some of the PVE stuff that dropped off
>> holiday bosses vs Season 10 PVP gear. It wasn't a huge difference. I was
>> having a harder time being sure which was better when it came time to
>> start replacing stuff when the season 11 PVP stuff came out. Your
>> comments help. Thanks.
>
>If you're not raiding, PvP gear is just fine. PvE gear of the same(or
>higher) ilvl will be better, but PvE gear a more than a few ilvls
>lower will generally be worse than the PvP gear. The difference is
>most important when you're raiding, where a 100 dps increase might be
>the difference between a win and a 1% wipe. Likewise, PvP gear doesn't
>have much Hit on it(being hit capped is generally considered high
>priority for every dps spec), and you need significantly more hit to
>fight raid bosses than you do to fight normal mobs, which is another
>downside. For healers, PvP gear often has less spirit, which means
>less mana regen. For PvP, this is acceptable, where fights are
>generally expected to be fairly brief giving you time to drink between
>skirmishes, for long drawn out boss fights it can be more problematic.
>
> Basically, a 346 blue is gonna be worse than a 406 PvP piece, period,
>but a 391 PvE piece is probably gonna be better than a 406 PvP piece
>despite the difference in ilvl. The extra crit/haste/mastery on the
>PvE piece will generally add slightly more to your DPS than the higher
>primary stat on the higher ilvl PvP piece.
>

Just a quick rebuttal from the other side <g>: Some of your info is a
bit dated, Danny. My Hunter, in full PvP gear (as are all of my toons)
has no problem hitting the hit cap, and has to almost constantly
reforge *away* from hit. She'd probably have to undo at least some of
the reforges if she were to get back into doing dungeons, but not all,
I believe. Also, my Holy Pally, who *does* do guild dungeons on
occasion, has seen exactly one piece that's still a replacement for
her PvP gear when doing dungeons, the Pickled Egg HH drop that
replaces the "break fear" trinket, which admittedly is pretty useless
for PvE (she had a necklace that was marginally better than her
Ruthless Gladiator neck, but it became worthless when she upgraded to
the Cata Gladiator one). I've looked through the Valor pieces and have
yet to find one that I'd replace, for 5 mans (*not* Raids, but that's
not what we're talking about here, right?). And if you think PvP
fights are brief, you haven't done near enough Tol Barad ;-P

I admit that I haven't researched possible drops from dungeons for
upgrades for her, but I haven't seen any.

--
ald
reply via email to ald_007_1999 at yahoo dot com

Shiflet

3/22/2012 4:45:00 AM

0


> Just a quick rebuttal from the other side <g>: Some of your info is a
> bit dated, Danny. My Hunter, in full PvP gear (as are all of my toons)
> has no problem hitting the hit cap, and has to almost constantly
> reforge *away* from hit.

Dated? I'm basing this on CURRENT season PvP gear. You will not hit
17% spell hit(which is raid hit cap) with PvP gear, even my warrior
and DK with 8% hit requires reforging to get.

> She'd probably have to undo at least some of
> the reforges if she were to get back into doing dungeons, but not all,
> I believe. Also, my Holy Pally, who *does* do guild dungeons on
> occasion, has seen exactly one piece that's still a replacement for
> her PvP gear when doing dungeons,

Umm, dungeon gear is a signifcantly lower ilvl, which I explicitly
said was inferior.

> (*not* Raids, but that's not what we're talking about here, right?).

Umm, yeah, it IS what we're talking about here. I SPECIFICALLY stated
that raids are where the PvP vs PvE makes a big difference and gave
specific reasons for why and how PvP gear is worse in a raid
environment compared to daily quests.

> And if you think PvP fights are brief, you haven't done near enough Tol Barad ;-P

....Tol Barad is a world PvP event every 2 hours. You're talking to
someone who basically does nothing BUT PvP and collect pets and
mounts... Hell, my DK is feared, I've had groups fo 2-3 people come to
a node, see me, alone, and leave rather than face me. I even once got
on an ally alt to ask an ally toon why he didn't help 3 other allies I
attacked post-TB(yes, my DK will instigate a fight even at 2 or 3-1
odds). His response, not knowing it was me, was "Have you ever fought
that guy before? If I joined in I'd have just been dead like you
guys". Made my day right there...

> I admit that I haven't researched possible drops from dungeons for upgrades for her, but I haven't seen any.

Dungeons drop stuff that is much lower ivl than PvP gear, I said that
stuff will be inferior.