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"Kick the tank"

petertrei

2/29/2012 2:19:00 PM

Last night I ran the first half of DS in LFR.

I knew something was wrong when the moment I phased in, with a fresh
run. I was in combat, and immediately stunned.

Normally, I expect a few seconds before combat starts to coordinate
blessings and auras with other pallies, if any, mark the tank as my
focus for Beacon, and start building up Holy Power. In this case, the
only other paladin was the main tank, who was running without either
an aura or a blessing up, and who had apparently started combat the
second he arrived.

I worked as fast as I could to recover. We got the first two bosses
down. On the third (the guy with the slimes), the tank started on the
first trash group before most of the raid had parachuted in. He died,
and we wiped.

Next pack included a Cobalt slime, which zeroes out mana very quickly.
But the tank didn't prioritize that one. I and all the other casters
went OOM rapidly, and we nearly wiped again. The tank complained about
lack of heals. I announced that I would do no more combat healing till
all the dead were rezzed. The tank said that they should run back in,
and started attacking the next group.

We wiped again.

On the way back in I started a vote to kick the tank, and announced it
in /raid, explaining why.

The vote passed. I've never seen a tank kicked from a pug raid for
incompetence before, but he richly deserved it. We replaced him in
under a minute, and the rest of the run was uneventful. I was top
healer.

What makes this odd is that tanks are almost *never* kicked. Most
players will ragequit the a group with an incompetent tank instead.
But this tank was so obviously failing in his task that it was obvious
to everyone, even DPS who'd had to queue for a long while.

I remember complaining back in WotLK about pug tanks thinking they
were in speed runs, and that any failures had to be Someone Elses
Fault, but it was a first to see it in a raid.

pt
10 Answers

Catriona R

2/29/2012 2:37:00 PM

0


On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 06:19:29 -0800 (PST), Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>Last night I ran the first half of DS in LFR.
>
>I knew something was wrong when the moment I phased in, with a fresh
>run. I was in combat, and immediately stunned.
>
>Normally, I expect a few seconds before combat starts to coordinate
>blessings and auras with other pallies, if any, mark the tank as my
>focus for Beacon, and start building up Holy Power. In this case, the
>only other paladin was the main tank, who was running without either
>an aura or a blessing up, and who had apparently started combat the
>second he arrived.
>
>I worked as fast as I could to recover. We got the first two bosses
>down. On the third (the guy with the slimes), the tank started on the
>first trash group before most of the raid had parachuted in. He died,
>and we wiped.
>
>Next pack included a Cobalt slime, which zeroes out mana very quickly.
>But the tank didn't prioritize that one. I and all the other casters
>went OOM rapidly, and we nearly wiped again. The tank complained about
>lack of heals. I announced that I would do no more combat healing till
>all the dead were rezzed. The tank said that they should run back in,
>and started attacking the next group.
>
>We wiped again.

Argh sounds a nightmare! Been in groups like that but it's usually
some idiot dpser pulling constantly, really loved it when some hunter
decided we should kill 3 packs of those slimes *at once* unfortunately
we didn't know which hunter had done it so no votekick (although the
foul language and attitude of one of them who was trying to blame
another suggests a likely culprit...).

>On the way back in I started a vote to kick the tank, and announced it
>in /raid, explaining why.
>
>The vote passed. I've never seen a tank kicked from a pug raid for
>incompetence before, but he richly deserved it. We replaced him in
>under a minute, and the rest of the run was uneventful. I was top
>healer.
>
>What makes this odd is that tanks are almost *never* kicked. Most
>players will ragequit the a group with an incompetent tank instead.
>But this tank was so obviously failing in his task that it was obvious
>to everyone, even DPS who'd had to queue for a long while.

I've seen a tank kicked once, he apparently couldn't see debuffs or
something so kept failing bigtime on Ultraxion, got kicked for it
after the wipe. Then I got kicked a minute later, with not a word in
raidchat or reason as to why - I'm still baffled over that since the
tank had clearly been at fault so no call for scapegoating healers! I
did nothing wrong that I know of (wasn't even lowest healer or
anything), but it kinda put me off for a few weeks...

>I remember complaining back in WotLK about pug tanks thinking they
>were in speed runs, and that any failures had to be Someone Elses
>Fault, but it was a first to see it in a raid.

Heh yeah, I expect it in 5-mans but it's less common in raids. At
least from the tanks, I think every run I do has a dps like that,
sucks when we start a bossfight and I'm on under 50% mana from trying
to heal huge trashpulls directly beforehand and not having been given
time to get out of combat to drink... LFR could use a feature making
it impossible to pull a boss until the entire raid is alive, and has
been alive and out of combat for 20-30 sec, give the poor healers time
to catch a breath :-P
--
EU-Draenor:
Sagart (85 Undead Priest) Tairbh (85 Tauren Druid)
Buinne (85 Troll Shaman) Eilnich (85 Blood Elf Warlock)
Ruire (85 Blood Elf Paladin) Balgair (85 Human Rogue)
Dubh (80 Orc Death Knight) Rosad (73 Human Warlock)

petertrei

2/29/2012 4:33:00 PM

0

On Feb 29, 9:37 am, Catriona R <catrionarNOS...@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 06:19:29 -0800 (PST), Cryptoengineer
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <petert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Last night I ran the first half of DS in LFR.
>
> >I knew something was wrong when the moment I phased in, with a fresh
> >run. I was in combat, and immediately stunned.
>
> >Normally, I expect a few seconds before combat starts to coordinate
> >blessings and auras with other pallies, if any, mark the tank as my
> >focus for Beacon, and start building up Holy Power. In this case, the
> >only other paladin was the main tank, who was running without either
> >an aura or a blessing up, and who had apparently started combat the
> >second he arrived.
>
> >I worked as fast as I could to recover. We got the first two bosses
> >down. On the third (the guy with the slimes), the tank started on the
> >first trash group before most of the raid had parachuted in. He died,
> >and we wiped.
>
> >Next pack included a Cobalt slime, which zeroes out mana very quickly.
> >But the tank didn't prioritize that one. I and all the other casters
> >went OOM rapidly, and we nearly wiped again. The tank complained about
> >lack of heals. I announced that I would do no more combat healing till
> >all the dead were rezzed. The tank said that they should run back in,
> >and started attacking the next group.
>
> >We wiped again.
>
> Argh sounds a nightmare! Been in groups like that but it's usually
> some idiot dpser pulling constantly, really loved it when some hunter
> decided we should kill 3 packs of those slimes *at once* unfortunately
> we didn't know which hunter had done it so no votekick (although the
> foul language and attitude of one of them who was trying to blame
> another suggests a likely culprit...).
>
> >On the way back in I started a vote to kick the tank, and announced it
> >in /raid, explaining why.
>
> >The vote passed. I've never seen a tank kicked from a pug raid for
> >incompetence before, but he richly deserved it. We replaced him in
> >under a minute, and the rest of the run was uneventful. I was top
> >healer.
>
> >What makes this odd is that tanks are almost *never* kicked. Most
> >players will ragequit the a group with an incompetent tank instead.
> >But this tank was so obviously failing in his task that it was obvious
> >to everyone, even DPS who'd had to queue for a long while.
>
> I've seen a tank kicked once, he apparently couldn't see debuffs or
> something so kept failing bigtime on Ultraxion, got kicked for it
> after the wipe. Then I got kicked a minute later, with not a word in
> raidchat or reason as to why - I'm still baffled over that since the
> tank had clearly been at fault so no call for scapegoating healers! I
> did nothing wrong that I know of (wasn't even lowest healer or
> anything), but it kinda put me off for a few weeks...
>
> >I remember complaining back in WotLK about pug tanks thinking they
> >were in speed runs, and that any failures had to be Someone Elses
> >Fault, but it was a first to see it in a raid.
>
> Heh yeah, I expect it in 5-mans but it's less common in raids. At
> least from the tanks, I think every run I do has a dps like that,
> sucks when we start a bossfight and I'm on under 50% mana from trying
> to heal huge trashpulls directly beforehand and not having been given
> time to get out of combat to drink... LFR could use a feature making
> it impossible to pull a boss until the entire raid is alive, and has
> been alive and out of combat for 20-30 sec, give the poor healers time
> to catch a breath :-P

I don't know about that necessarily, but one of my pet peeves are
tanks and dps who don't realize that healers continue to be very busy
for a while *after* combat ends, to bring people up to full health.
This has often meant that in 5-mans I've had to leave dead mobs
unlooted, since combat has restarted some distance away.

pt

S U N risr

2/29/2012 6:53:00 PM

0

On 2/29/2012 11:33 AM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
> On Feb 29, 9:37 am, Catriona R<catrionarNOS...@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 06:19:29 -0800 (PST), Cryptoengineer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

>>
>> Heh yeah, I expect it in 5-mans but it's less common in raids. At
>> least from the tanks, I think every run I do has a dps like that,
>> sucks when we start a bossfight and I'm on under 50% mana from trying
>> to heal huge trashpulls directly beforehand and not having been given
>> time to get out of combat to drink... LFR could use a feature making
>> it impossible to pull a boss until the entire raid is alive, and has
>> been alive and out of combat for 20-30 sec, give the poor healers time
>> to catch a breath :-P
>
> I don't know about that necessarily, but one of my pet peeves are
> tanks and dps who don't realize that healers continue to be very busy
> for a while *after* combat ends, to bring people up to full health.
> This has often meant that in 5-mans I've had to leave dead mobs
> unlooted, since combat has restarted some distance away.
>
> pt


Yup - another reason I don't heal 5-man pugs....only with guild tanks.
Another thing about the LFR I like when I heal is that there is usually
consensus from 5 other healers about what is going on. If the tanks are
mentally challenged and there are problems it isn't just me and my word
against the tanks, but 5 other healers....and 99% of the times one of
those healers has *NO* problem whatsoever telling the problem tank off,
esp if said tank mouths off about something. Sometimes I'll even mouth
off. We wiped once on the second boss of the first half - yea, the
tanks and spank boss. We got back in and someone said "fail heals"
which pissed me off, so I was the first one to go off on him to let him
know that "most !@#ing tanks are smart enought to know to face the boss
*away* from the raid, so he doesn't cast the void right in the middle of
us - but I gave you too much credit"...

....to which there were 6-7 lines of "^" - whatever that means, but I
think it means "what he said!"? ....At least I hope that's what it
means...Probably means "di!@head" lol

k

3/1/2012 12:25:00 AM

0


"Cryptoengineer" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3e60e711-2f2b-4492-93b8-1f5691779d43@fk28g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> Last night I ran the first half of DS in LFR.
>
> I knew something was wrong when the moment I phased in, with a fresh
> run. I was in combat, and immediately stunned.

ug, that's how *every* LFR I have been in starts..


>.., and who had apparently started combat the
> second he arrived.

I took some enthusiastic fresh 85's who'd never raided to LFR and told them
before we queued not to worry about food as I'd drop a seafood banquet as
soon as we got in - didn't happen, As soon as we got in we were in combat
and it stayed that way.


> I worked as fast as I could to recover. We got the first two bosses
> down. On the third (the guy with the slimes), the tank started on the
> first trash group before most of the raid had parachuted in. He died,
> and we wiped.

I'll bet you worked hard and well done you for trying! Unfortunately it
seems that's often these maniacs goal - to make every one work as hard as
possible to keep up. In the last LFR I was in it was only when we got to
that same third boss before I managed to drop a mage table - but as you
experienced people were still parachuting in at the time.. and we also
wiped.


> Next pack included a Cobalt slime, which zeroes out mana very quickly.
> But the tank didn't prioritize that one. I and all the other casters
> went OOM rapidly, and we nearly wiped again. The tank complained about
> lack of heals. I announced that I would do no more combat healing till
> all the dead were rezzed. The tank said that they should run back in,
> and started attacking the next group.

2 LFR's I've been in the tank has targ'd cobalts first, every other LFR not.
The mana dependant players have generally ignored the tanks MT and worked
the cobalt, but not always. I've had it explained to me by someone 'LFR is
easymode and they don't care about your dps, just get through it asap'. Yes
well, I'm usually between number 4 and 6 on the recount and that's while oom
most of the time.. I guess if you run fast enough to keep the mana users
low on mana you get to drive your own numbers up - and yes I knew a tank
that did that.. he loved to brag how he topped dps - and he made SURE he did
by keeping mana users oom.

> On the way back in I started a vote to kick the tank, and announced it
> in /raid, explaining why.

There should be more of this! I still maintain it takes less time to buff,
eat and wait for mana dependants like mages to top up than it does running
in, screaming at each other and ressing the dead. but it seems from the
LFRs I've been in the tanks don't care much for anyone with mana issues ..
including healers


> I remember complaining back in WotLK about pug tanks thinking they
> were in speed runs, and that any failures had to be Someone Elses
> Fault, but it was a first to see it in a raid.

you've been very lucky!



ald

3/1/2012 5:35:00 AM

0

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:52:53 -0500, IYM <"S U N riser"@optonline.net>
wrote:

>...to which there were 6-7 lines of "^" - whatever that means, but I
>think it means "what he said!"? ....At least I hope that's what it
>means...Probably means "di!@head" lol

From my understanding, having seen it many times in TB, you had it
right the first time. They're "pointing" to what you said in
agreement.

--
ald
reply via email to ald_007_1999 at yahoo dot com

josephus

3/2/2012 4:28:00 AM

0

ald wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:52:53 -0500, IYM<"S U N riser"@optonline.net>
> wrote:
>
>> ...to which there were 6-7 lines of "^" - whatever that means, but I
>> think it means "what he said!"? ....At least I hope that's what it
>> means...Probably means "di!@head" lol
>
> From my understanding, having seen it many times in TB, you had it
> right the first time. They're "pointing" to what you said in
> agreement.
>

I was in a pug i dont recall which one. however the tank and his
guildies were RUNING through so fast my lock could not even loot
ANYTHING and had a hard time keeping up. (I get lost frequently anyway)

The game has NO peripheral vision and I fall off of all kinds of thinga too.

josephus



k

3/2/2012 7:08:00 AM

0


"josephus" <dogbird@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:QLqdnXecFPGj0c3SnZ2dnUVZ_hmdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> ald wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:52:53 -0500, IYM<"S U N riser"@optonline.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> ...to which there were 6-7 lines of "^" - whatever that means, but I
>>> think it means "what he said!"? ....At least I hope that's what it
>>> means...Probably means "di!@head" lol
>>
>> From my understanding, having seen it many times in TB, you had it
>> right the first time. They're "pointing" to what you said in
>> agreement.
>>
>
> I was in a pug i dont recall which one. however the tank and his
> guildies were RUNING through so fast my lock could not even loot ANYTHING
> and had a hard time keeping up. (I get lost frequently anyway)
>
> The game has NO peripheral vision and I fall off of all kinds of thinga
> too.
>
> josephus


no reflection on you whatsoever, but my wife was healing a grim batol run
with a warlock who kept saying 'gogogo' in party chat then as soon as the
tank pulled (or just before) my wife would say 'what the hell?' and I'd look
over to see the lock had died - to falling.. after 4 deaths this way my
wife got the giggles..

but yes, I hate those runs where there's no stopping to loot, especially as
I gather cloth which means I dont get all my loot 'till after everyone else
has looted the corpses. Skinning was the same. I've had people say 'go
farm for leather, don't do it here' but the leather returns are far better
in some dungeons.

And then there was this one time the bear did not stop for anything at all
till the end boss. At which point he said 'tyvm' then left the dungeon ..
but not the party. Moments later he phased back in (I'd wandered off for
some reason) and I saw him run back over the whole instance looting. Nice -
if I'd not been there any BoE's he' looted would have automatically gone to
him had we not been there to roll too

very sneaky


Ashen Shugar

3/2/2012 7:19:00 AM

0


> And then there was this one time the bear did not stop for anything at all
> till the end boss. At which point he said 'tyvm' then left the dungeon ..
> but not the party. Moments later he phased back in (I'd wandered off for
> some reason) and I saw him run back over the whole instance looting. Nice -
> if I'd not been there any BoE's he' looted would have automatically gone to
> him had we not been there to roll too
>
> very sneaky

If there was a BoE, anyone could click on the corpse to initiate the roll for it. When you're in that sort of run, there's nothing wrong with combat looting, it's pretty much expected, so the BoE's should be swept up as you go along.

--
Ashen Shugar

usenet

3/2/2012 9:37:00 AM

0

<deathsabyss@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> > And then there was this one time the bear did not stop for anything at all
> > till the end boss. At which point he said 'tyvm' then left the dungeon ..
> > but not the party. Moments later he phased back in (I'd wandered off for
> > some reason) and I saw him run back over the whole instance looting. Nice -
> > if I'd not been there any BoE's he' looted would have automatically gone to
> > him had we not been there to roll too
> >
> > very sneaky
>
> If there was a BoE, anyone could click on the corpse to initiate the roll
> for it. When you're in that sort of run, there's nothing wrong with
> combat looting, it's pretty much expected, so the BoE's should be swept
> up as you go along.

And you might as well need everything without looking, as everyone else
will in those cases...

T.

josephus

3/6/2012 5:51:00 AM

0

deathsabyss@yahoo.com.au wrote:
>
>> And then there was this one time the bear did not stop for anything at all
>> till the end boss. At which point he said 'tyvm' then left the dungeon ..
>> but not the party. Moments later he phased back in (I'd wandered off for
>> some reason) and I saw him run back over the whole instance looting. Nice -
>> if I'd not been there any BoE's he' looted would have automatically gone to
>> him had we not been there to roll too
>>
>> very sneaky
>
> If there was a BoE, anyone could click on the corpse to initiate the roll for it. When you're in that sort of run, there's nothing wrong with combat looting, it's pretty much expected, so the BoE's should be swept up as you go along.
>

I think it is a sad comment on the children that play this game. they
are rude and think they KNOW more than anyone. I have seen children
playing and some of them seem to be 6 or 8 years old.
josephus

josephus