[lnkForumImage]
TotalShareware - Download Free Software
Usa Forum
 Home | Login | Register | Search 


 

Forums >

alt.games.warcraft

I may be being an Elitist Jerk, but...

petertrei

1/3/2012 3:41:00 AM

..... I'm kind of annoyed by the LFR 25 man PUGs that were introduced
in 4.3. They run seriously nerfed versions of the end-game content,
and provide loot inferior to that which can be bought with Valor
Points.

In the past, seeing end-game content early required membership in a
good raiding guild (since pug 25 mans usually failed, hard). End game
was reserved as a reward for those that could work in a team, and
spend time and effort to learn a series of encounters.

Now anyone with a decent gear level can take down Deathwing, and the
achievement just seems cheapened.

Anyone else see it that way?

pt
31 Answers

Polarhound

1/3/2012 4:25:00 AM

0

On 1/2/2012 10:41 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:

> Now anyone with a decent gear level can take down Deathwing, and the
> achievement just seems cheapened.

Blizzard wanted EVERYONE to be able to experience the full story.

If you are threatened by a lower level of raid, handing out lesser gear,
just because the Unwashed Masses get to kill the same bosses you do, you
really need to re-evaluate the true reasons you raid to begin with.

Catriona R

1/3/2012 4:55:00 AM

0


On Mon, 2 Jan 2012 19:41:14 -0800 (PST), Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>.... I'm kind of annoyed by the LFR 25 man PUGs that were introduced
>in 4.3. They run seriously nerfed versions of the end-game content,
>and provide loot inferior to that which can be bought with Valor
>Points.

In which case, they're no threat to "proper" raids for people who
prefer that playstyle.

>In the past, seeing end-game content early required membership in a
>good raiding guild (since pug 25 mans usually failed, hard). End game
>was reserved as a reward for those that could work in a team, and
>spend time and effort to learn a series of encounters.

Yep, it was restricted to those who had time and willingness to commit
to an extended schedule of raiding (every week, same time, oh, tough
if you work awkward shifts/have outside interests that clash
occasionally), being in a large guild of people they possibly didn't
particularly like, all to experience endgame content. Those of us who
weren't willing to make that commitment never got to see storylines
complete, or great scenery and designs, basically meaning large
amounts of design time were only seen by a fraction of the population,
wasteful to say the least. I'm sure I've seen stats in the past saying
only 1% of the population got to see endbosses in some expansions.
What a waste, both of designers' time and of really good content, for
it to hardly be seen by anybody.

>Now anyone with a decent gear level can take down Deathwing, and the
>achievement just seems cheapened.
>
>Anyone else see it that way?

Not me! Raid Finder is the best addition to the game in years in my
opinion. Yes, it's easymode (and needs to be, going off the groups
I've seen; most fights you start with 1-2 people dead/afk, and getting
them all to understand simple stuff like "press the button when Hour
of Twilight casts" is impossible...), but it makes all that design
work accessible to anyone who wishes to experience it. The "proper"
raids get all the prestige; the titles, the legendaries, the mounts,
the better loot, and more challenging fights (which I'm sure are more
fun, when in a group capable of them), but allowing everyone the
opportunity to see endgame bosses and content is great, and I think
done as fairly as possible, by having a watered down version with much
less prestige for the "easymode" runs, and reserving the extras which
shout "hey I'm a "proper" raider" for the normal and heroic modes.

I for one am delighted to have, for the first time ever, seen an
expansion's final boss! I've raided before; did Karazhan/ZA regularly
in TBC and Naxx/Sarth/Malygos in WotLK (that guild broke up 1 week
before Ulduar patch, but I'd burned out by then so wasn't sorry - I
just can't sustain longterm raiding), but never reached the end raids
in expansions. All the lore stuff about Kael'Thas and Illidan? I've
only seen Kael in MgT (and in a failed TK duoing attempt at 85;
couldn't get him down even then), and never seen Illidan at all. Two
huge lore characters, unavailable to those who don't commit to large
groups. Arthas? Nope, seen him all over Northrend but not seen any of
the end of the story (although at least the cinematic being ingame was
something). C'thun? Well I'll see him one day but can't get past Twins
duo so need a bigger pug group. Kil'jaeden? Again, never seen him.

I *love* the lore of the game, love great storylines, love interesting
boss mechanics and great scenery. I don't like being forced to commit
to a schedule of raiding with a bunch of people I don't even like, to
have a chance of beating my head off a brick wall for weeks on end so
as to maybe get to see some of that lore, scenery, etc. I don't see
that it's a bad thing to allow folk like me the chance to see a
watered-down version of it, when you "proper" raiders get all the
prestige stuff anyay; it just means that more customers get to see the
best parts of the game, which is surely a good thing all round.
--
EU-Draenor:
Sagart (85 Undead Priest) Tairbh (85 Tauren Druid)
Buinne (85 Troll Shaman) Eilnich (85 Blood Elf Warlock)
Ruire (85 Blood Elf Paladin) Balgair (81 Human Rogue)
Dubh (80 Orc Death Knight) Rosad (73 Human Warlock)

Tigero

1/3/2012 8:41:00 AM

0

There were two problems:

1. A large number of people cannot raid in the current raiding setup
for several reasons.

2. Those people who cannot raid will not be satisfied with the limited
end game content other than raids, so they quit and look elsewhere.

The solution was to have a raiding system that doesn't require tight
schedule where anyone can raid at their own convenient time. And one
that doesn't require investing a large time in searching for people
who can fill the required roles. And one that guarantees that people
who participate at least have the minimum gear requirement for the
raid.

This eliminate the human factor which prevented many people from
raiding, e.g a raid leader who sets time to his or other people's
convenience other than the individual, a raid leader who can exclude
the individual from raid because the role was already filled, and a
raid leader who require players to have gear only obtainable by raids
in able to raid, which is impossible for nearly most people who only
run 5 man dungeons, you need to raid to be able to raid, but since you
didn't raid int he first place then you can't raid :/

For people who are part of the community that want to raid but cannot
in the regular system the raid finder came as a brilliant solution. It
worked, it is very successful.

For those who can raid and are doing normals and heroics, I don't see
how the system will affect them negatively. In fact it can help build
a ready for normals team much faster due to easily obtained gear that
provide more than enough stats to start the normal runs.

SandF

1/3/2012 11:12:00 AM

0


"Tigero" <boainabf@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:36dbafc6-005d-44e2-bc14-e6afa945a61a@p16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> There were two problems:
>
> 1. A large number of people cannot raid in the current raiding setup
> for several reasons.
>
> 2. Those people who cannot raid will not be satisfied with the limited
> end game content other than raids, so they quit and look elsewhere.
>
> The solution was to have a raiding system that doesn't require tight
> schedule where anyone can raid at their own convenient time. And one
> that doesn't require investing a large time in searching for people
> who can fill the required roles. And one that guarantees that people
> who participate at least have the minimum gear requirement for the
> raid.
>
> This eliminate the human factor which prevented many people from
> raiding, e.g a raid leader who sets time to his or other people's
> convenience other than the individual, a raid leader who can exclude
> the individual from raid because the role was already filled, and a
> raid leader who require players to have gear only obtainable by raids
> in able to raid, which is impossible for nearly most people who only
> run 5 man dungeons, you need to raid to be able to raid, but since you
> didn't raid int he first place then you can't raid :/
>
> For people who are part of the community that want to raid but cannot
> in the regular system the raid finder came as a brilliant solution. It
> worked, it is very successful.
>
> For those who can raid and are doing normals and heroics, I don't see
> how the system will affect them negatively. In fact it can help build
> a ready for normals team much faster due to easily obtained gear that
> provide more than enough stats to start the normal runs.

I love LFR...I have never seen end game content during the life span of an
expansion, only after, when my small, casual guild outgears the content.
To be able to see the end game content has given me an extra reason to
continue playing instead of levelling yet another alt (8 x 85 at the moment)
The gear, for me, is nothing compared to experiencing the final encounter of
an expansion.
My subscription is the same as any hardcore raider...why shouldn't I enjoy
the end game content?
Good job, Blizzard. :o)


Catriona R

1/3/2012 1:51:00 PM

0


On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 00:41:07 -0800 (PST), Tigero <boainabf@gmail.com>
wrote:

>This eliminate the human factor which prevented many people from
>raiding, e.g a raid leader who sets time to his or other people's
>convenience other than the individual, a raid leader who can exclude
>the individual from raid because the role was already filled, and a
>raid leader who require players to have gear only obtainable by raids
>in able to raid, which is impossible for nearly most people who only
>run 5 man dungeons, you need to raid to be able to raid, but since you
>didn't raid int he first place then you can't raid :/

And of course, the fact that every raid pug requires you to have the
achievement to join the pug, even though to get the achievement you
need to be able to get into the pug which requires the achievement
that you don't yet have. Argh! It's so great being able to just join,
be it on an alt, or whatever, nobody's looking at me and saying "no
achievement, can't come". The ilvl requirement mostly solves the gear
issues as well; I griped at first but it didn't take long to reach via
the new 5-mans so no problems.

>For people who are part of the community that want to raid but cannot
>in the regular system the raid finder came as a brilliant solution. It
>worked, it is very successful.

Definitely, I'm delighted with it. Had my doubts at first frankly, I
thought it'd be a recipe for chaos, and yeah, it's not always perfect
(been kicked for no reason from one group, others have been wipefests
with people screaming insults at each other... but most have been
good!), but it's a lot better than I expected and it's just having the
opportunity to experience the content at all! Huge huge bonus for
everyone who can't commit to serious raiding.
--
EU-Draenor:
Sagart (85 Undead Priest) Tairbh (85 Tauren Druid)
Buinne (85 Troll Shaman) Eilnich (85 Blood Elf Warlock)
Ruire (85 Blood Elf Paladin) Balgair (81 Human Rogue)
Dubh (80 Orc Death Knight) Rosad (73 Human Warlock)

twk

1/3/2012 3:38:00 PM

0

In article <puSdnbXfGZzlf5_SnZ2dnUVZ8nidnZ2d@bt.com>,
"SandF" <here@btconnect.com> wrote:

> "Tigero" <boainabf@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:36dbafc6-005d-44e2-bc14-e6afa945a61a@p16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> > There were two problems:
> >
> > 1. A large number of people cannot raid in the current raiding setup
> > for several reasons.
> >
> > 2. Those people who cannot raid will not be satisfied with the limited
> > end game content other than raids, so they quit and look elsewhere.
> >
> > The solution was to have a raiding system that doesn't require tight
> > schedule where anyone can raid at their own convenient time. And one
> > that doesn't require investing a large time in searching for people
> > who can fill the required roles. And one that guarantees that people
> > who participate at least have the minimum gear requirement for the
> > raid.
> >
> > This eliminate the human factor which prevented many people from
> > raiding, e.g a raid leader who sets time to his or other people's
> > convenience other than the individual, a raid leader who can exclude
> > the individual from raid because the role was already filled, and a
> > raid leader who require players to have gear only obtainable by raids
> > in able to raid, which is impossible for nearly most people who only
> > run 5 man dungeons, you need to raid to be able to raid, but since you
> > didn't raid int he first place then you can't raid :/
> >
> > For people who are part of the community that want to raid but cannot
> > in the regular system the raid finder came as a brilliant solution. It
> > worked, it is very successful.
> >
> > For those who can raid and are doing normals and heroics, I don't see
> > how the system will affect them negatively. In fact it can help build
> > a ready for normals team much faster due to easily obtained gear that
> > provide more than enough stats to start the normal runs.
>
> I love LFR...I have never seen end game content during the life span of an
> expansion, only after, when my small, casual guild outgears the content.
> To be able to see the end game content has given me an extra reason to
> continue playing instead of levelling yet another alt (8 x 85 at the moment)
> The gear, for me, is nothing compared to experiencing the final encounter of
> an expansion.
> My subscription is the same as any hardcore raider...why shouldn't I enjoy
> the end game content?
> Good job, Blizzard. :o)

As a non-raider for many of the above reasons. I may have to try out the
LFR. I still have problems playing for an hour or more without a break,
except on my days off. This was a great thread for me.

Unfortunately I'm getting a bit bored with the game so I've been using
my gathering skills to make a pile of gold and advance my guild's
fishing achievement. I want the Recipe: Seafood Magnifique Feast
<http://www.wowhead.com/item...
I'm sort of taking a break from the game while still playing. /grin

--
For all you know this message was...
Sent via an exclusive network, on a snobby portable computing device.

petertrei

1/3/2012 4:40:00 PM

0

On Jan 3, 6:11 am, "SandF" <h...@btconnect.com> wrote:
> "Tigero" <boain...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:36dbafc6-005d-44e2-bc14-e6afa945a61a@p16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > There were two problems:
>
> > 1. A large number of people cannot raid in the current raiding setup
> > for several reasons.
>
> > 2. Those people who cannot raid will not be satisfied with the limited
> > end game content other than raids, so they quit and look elsewhere.
>
> > The solution was to have a raiding system that doesn't require tight
> > schedule where anyone can raid at their own convenient time. And one
> > that doesn't require investing a large time in searching for people
> > who can fill the required roles. And one that guarantees that people
> > who participate at least have the minimum gear requirement for the
> > raid.
>
> > This eliminate the human factor which prevented many people from
> > raiding, e.g a raid leader who sets time to his or other people's
> > convenience other than the individual, a raid leader who can exclude
> > the individual from raid because the role was already filled, and a
> > raid leader who require players to have gear only obtainable by raids
> > in able to raid, which is impossible for nearly most people who only
> > run 5 man dungeons, you need to raid to be able to raid, but since you
> > didn't raid int he first place then you can't raid :/
>
> > For people who are part of the community that want to raid but cannot
> > in the regular system the raid finder came as a brilliant solution. It
> > worked, it is very successful.
>
> > For those who can raid and are doing normals and heroics, I don't see
> > how the system will affect them negatively. In fact it can help build
> > a ready for normals team much faster due to easily obtained gear that
> > provide more than enough stats to start the normal runs.
>
> I love LFR...I have never seen end game content during the life span of an
> expansion, only after, when my small, casual guild outgears the content.
> To be able to see the end game content has given me an extra reason to
> continue playing instead of levelling yet another alt (8 x 85 at the moment)
> The gear, for me, is nothing compared to experiencing the final encounter of
> an expansion.
> My subscription is the same as any hardcore raider...why shouldn't I enjoy
> the end game content?
> Good job, Blizzard. :o)

Because some things are worth working hard for, that's why.

All the responses up to this point are in agreement that: "Yes, you're
being an elitist jerk."

So sue me. It's a game. If for me part of the fun is working hard to
go places and achieve things most people can't, I refuse to feel
guilty about it.

Interacting with and getting reactions from other players is part of
the game, and if success in finding or founding a suitable guild raid
team is a requirement to unlock content, that seems to me just as
valid as having to beat Boss A before you can fight Boss B. If the
'MM' part of 'MMORPG' was of no interest, I'd play Portal.

To me, finding a guild that I could work with has been an important
part of the game. I'm married with kids, a house to care for, a long
commute, and a demanding job. I went through a lot of guilds before I
found one which could accomodate my low level of availability - once
or twice a week, for about 2.5 hours at a time. It took my raid team
many months to work our way through Icecrown on 10 man regular, but
when my toon finally stood before The Frozen Throne, I *knew* that he
had earned his right to be there, even if the result was to be
repeatedly curb-stomped by Arthas.

At the moment, We're two bosses into current end-game content, still
on 10 man regular. We're slow. Aside from working hard to be a good
healer, I help the team by bringing Cauldrons and Feasts to every
raid. Mats gathering and running random heroics for Valor Points add a
good bit of time, but are activities I can drop instantly when Real
Life takes precedence.

I think its perfectly reasonable that people who take the time and
effort to do something hard should be rewarded. Guild based raiders
still get gear, mounts, and titles which solo players can't but
they've now lost one other reward: Seeing content accessible only
through harder work than most players are willing to invest.

If you'd spent a couple years of training and conditioning to climb
Mount Everest, wouldn't you feel a bit put out if on arriving at base
camp, you found that an elevator had just been installed, and anyone
with $5 could achieve the summit?

I realize that Blizzard is working hard to try to retain players at
this point, and LFR is part of that. But I'm not overjoyed about it.
At least, (I think) there's a title reserved for completing on Heroic
mode. Maybe one day I'll have it, but if it's only available to better
players than I, then I regard it as their just due and prerogative.

pt

Catriona R

1/3/2012 5:17:00 PM

0


On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 08:39:58 -0800 (PST), Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>Because some things are worth working hard for, that's why.
>
>All the responses up to this point are in agreement that: "Yes, you're
>being an elitist jerk."
>
>So sue me. It's a game. If for me part of the fun is working hard to
>go places and achieve things most people can't, I refuse to feel
>guilty about it.

Indeed. And you can still do that, so no problem.

>Interacting with and getting reactions from other players is part of
>the game, and if success in finding or founding a suitable guild raid
>team is a requirement to unlock content, that seems to me just as
>valid as having to beat Boss A before you can fight Boss B. If the
>'MM' part of 'MMORPG' was of no interest, I'd play Portal.

Massively Multiplayer. Doesn't say anywhere "Massively Must-Be-In-An
Organised-Raiding-Guild-To-See-Content". I'd say joining a raid with
24 other people from across lots of servers is both Massive and
Multiplayer...

>To me, finding a guild that I could work with has been an important
>part of the game. I'm married with kids, a house to care for, a long
>commute, and a demanding job. I went through a lot of guilds before I
>found one which could accomodate my low level of availability - once
>or twice a week, for about 2.5 hours at a time. It took my raid team
>many months to work our way through Icecrown on 10 man regular, but
>when my toon finally stood before The Frozen Throne, I *knew* that he
>had earned his right to be there, even if the result was to be
>repeatedly curb-stomped by Arthas.

But none of that has changed. Can't really see why having an easier
option available makes the harder achievements any less worth earning.
Anyway, you're saying you did it on 10-man? Wasn't that long ago
25-man raiders were trotting out the exact same arguments regarding
10-man raids that you are now regarding LFR - 10-mans made it "not
worth" doing 25-mans, everyone would see content they hadn't earned
the right to see, etc etc. No, it's all still there if you want to do
it that way, and the existence of other options in no way removes the
difficulty or challenge, or prestige, of your way. Only *you* can
choose to make it feel lesser, by convincing yourself that it's
changed.

>At the moment, We're two bosses into current end-game content, still
>on 10 man regular. We're slow. Aside from working hard to be a good
>healer, I help the team by bringing Cauldrons and Feasts to every
>raid. Mats gathering and running random heroics for Valor Points add a
>good bit of time, but are activities I can drop instantly when Real
>Life takes precedence.
>
>I think its perfectly reasonable that people who take the time and
>effort to do something hard should be rewarded. Guild based raiders
>still get gear, mounts, and titles which solo players can't but
>they've now lost one other reward: Seeing content accessible only
>through harder work than most players are willing to invest.

Can't really see why you think it's fair to deny access to others
though: you get better rewards, where's the big deal? If you like
exclusivity, there's plenty of places in real life for that, WoW is a
game, meant to be fun for the majority, not for the few.

>If you'd spent a couple years of training and conditioning to climb
>Mount Everest, wouldn't you feel a bit put out if on arriving at base
>camp, you found that an elevator had just been installed, and anyone
>with $5 could achieve the summit?

No, I wouldn't. Because it's totally different, doing it the easy way
to doing it the hard way - I'd feel very satisified to have made it
there on foot. Others getting there by elevator doesn't take away the
achievement of going on foot at all.

Or to use a WoW analogy: I farmed up Darkmoon Faire rep before
Cataclysm, the old way of crafting tons and tons of cards and making
decks. Took ages and a small fortune, but it was damn satisfying to
complete it. Now, it's a lot easier with the new dailies, will still
take a while but it's far easier. Do I care? No, because completing it
the way I did it still satisfies me; it was a challenge and I'm happy
I did it the hard way. And I didn't even get anything extra from doing
it the harder way, unlike the different raid diffculties; my only
reward is personal satisfaction.
--
EU-Draenor:
Sagart (85 Undead Priest) Tairbh (85 Tauren Druid)
Buinne (85 Troll Shaman) Eilnich (85 Blood Elf Warlock)
Ruire (85 Blood Elf Paladin) Balgair (81 Human Rogue)
Dubh (80 Orc Death Knight) Rosad (73 Human Warlock)

petertrei

1/3/2012 5:27:00 PM

0

On Jan 3, 12:17 pm, Catriona R <catrionarNOS...@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 08:39:58 -0800 (PST), Cryptoengineer

>
> >If you'd spent a couple years of training and conditioning to climb
> >Mount Everest, wouldn't you feel a bit put out if on arriving at base
> >camp, you found that an elevator had just been installed, and anyone
> >with $5 could achieve the summit?
>
> No, I wouldn't. Because it's totally different, doing it the easy way
> to doing it the hard way - I'd feel very satisified to have made it
> there on foot. Others getting there by elevator doesn't take away the
> achievement of going on foot at all.
>
> Or to use a WoW analogy: I farmed up Darkmoon Faire rep before
> Cataclysm, the old way of crafting tons and tons of cards and making
> decks. Took ages and a small fortune, but it was damn satisfying to
> complete it. Now, it's a lot easier with the new dailies, will still
> take a while but it's far easier. Do I care? No, because completing it
> the way I did it still satisfies me; it was a challenge and I'm happy
> I did it the hard way. And I didn't even get anything extra from doing
> it the harder way, unlike the different raid diffculties; my only
> reward is personal satisfaction.

However, if you were only now seeking DF rep, would you do it via
cards, or via the dailies? Since you say the cards supply so much more
satisfaction, by your argument you would ignore the dailies, and do it
the hard way.

If not, why not?

pt

Catriona R

1/3/2012 6:27:00 PM

0


On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 09:26:56 -0800 (PST), Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Jan 3, 12:17 pm, Catriona R <catrionarNOS...@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 08:39:58 -0800 (PST), Cryptoengineer
>
>>
>> >If you'd spent a couple years of training and conditioning to climb
>> >Mount Everest, wouldn't you feel a bit put out if on arriving at base
>> >camp, you found that an elevator had just been installed, and anyone
>> >with $5 could achieve the summit?
>>
>> No, I wouldn't. Because it's totally different, doing it the easy way
>> to doing it the hard way - I'd feel very satisified to have made it
>> there on foot. Others getting there by elevator doesn't take away the
>> achievement of going on foot at all.
>>
>> Or to use a WoW analogy: I farmed up Darkmoon Faire rep before
>> Cataclysm, the old way of crafting tons and tons of cards and making
>> decks. Took ages and a small fortune, but it was damn satisfying to
>> complete it. Now, it's a lot easier with the new dailies, will still
>> take a while but it's far easier. Do I care? No, because completing it
>> the way I did it still satisfies me; it was a challenge and I'm happy
>> I did it the hard way. And I didn't even get anything extra from doing
>> it the harder way, unlike the different raid diffculties; my only
>> reward is personal satisfaction.
>
>However, if you were only now seeking DF rep, would you do it via
>cards, or via the dailies? Since you say the cards supply so much more
>satisfaction, by your argument you would ignore the dailies, and do it
>the hard way.
>
>If not, why not?

I would use both, since I'd be doing the dailies anyway, for the pets
rewarded by them :-P But in that situation the analogy doesn't work so
well, since there's extra rewards to doing normal and heroic modes,
and there's none for using a harder method for gaining rep.
--
EU-Draenor:
Sagart (85 Undead Priest) Tairbh (85 Tauren Druid)
Buinne (85 Troll Shaman) Eilnich (85 Blood Elf Warlock)
Ruire (85 Blood Elf Paladin) Balgair (81 Human Rogue)
Dubh (80 Orc Death Knight) Rosad (73 Human Warlock)