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Lancelet

9/5/2011 6:56:00 AM

Our guild is never quick to kill raid bosses (we slayed the king in the
last weeks of WotLK, before the cataclysm)

The guild had already killed Nefarian two or three weeks ago, and I maybe
they killed him twice but I was not there.

Last thursday, I was tanking Blackwing descent, and we wiped for 2h30
before calling it a night. There were some wipes on the first two phases
(missing a counterspell in phase two, bad positionning in phase one) but
the worst of all was the third one.

I was tanking Onyxia, once you get it it's rather easy, just be focused
to rotate here when she does her electric side attack (I have to say it's
rather clever from his brother to add this "feature". Dragons are knowned
to be tanked side against the raid, to avoid the tail and breath attacks.
And now, we have a dragon that do a both sides attack that can wipe a
raid.)

On the third phase I was on the adds, and it's not easy to take them all,
don't let them go to the raid, and avoid flames everywhere.

We usually raid on tuesday and thirsday only, but since our raidleader
want to finish the three first raids before going to the Firelands (and I
totally agree), we added sunday night to our schedule.

So, back to Blackwing Descent yesterday. There were some wipes, again.
One try was close, Nefarian had "only" 400k life ... Another one after
that and at least, we killed him. Yeah !

I won the helmet token (I had bought the BOE helmet that has the same
look on the AH months ago, but I will use this one and I buy another
piece to get the 4 pieces bonus set)

After that, two tries on the ascendant counsel (last boss before
Cho'gall). We will go back to them tomorrow, we will see. Phase one seems
clear, but we must learn phase two a little.
20 Answers

S U N risr

9/6/2011 11:39:00 AM

0

On 9/5/2011 2:55 AM, Lancelet wrote:
> Our guild is never quick to kill raid bosses (we slayed the king in the
> last weeks of WotLK, before the cataclysm)
>
> The guild had already killed Nefarian two or three weeks ago, and I maybe
> they killed him twice but I was not there.
>
> Last thursday, I was tanking Blackwing descent, and we wiped for 2h30
> before calling it a night. There were some wipes on the first two phases
> (missing a counterspell in phase two, bad positionning in phase one) but
> the worst of all was the third one.
>
> I was tanking Onyxia, once you get it it's rather easy, just be focused
> to rotate here when she does her electric side attack (I have to say it's
> rather clever from his brother to add this "feature". Dragons are knowned
> to be tanked side against the raid, to avoid the tail and breath attacks.
> And now, we have a dragon that do a both sides attack that can wipe a
> raid.)
>
> On the third phase I was on the adds, and it's not easy to take them all,
> don't let them go to the raid, and avoid flames everywhere.
>
> We usually raid on tuesday and thirsday only, but since our raidleader
> want to finish the three first raids before going to the Firelands (and I
> totally agree), we added sunday night to our schedule.
>
> So, back to Blackwing Descent yesterday. There were some wipes, again.
> One try was close, Nefarian had "only" 400k life ... Another one after
> that and at least, we killed him. Yeah !
>
> I won the helmet token (I had bought the BOE helmet that has the same
> look on the AH months ago, but I will use this one and I buy another
> piece to get the 4 pieces bonus set)
>
> After that, two tries on the ascendant counsel (last boss before
> Cho'gall). We will go back to them tomorrow, we will see. Phase one seems
> clear, but we must learn phase two a little.

Our guild is much like yours... :)

We're on Cho'gall now and took the council down in 3 attempts once
everyone got a feel for it. They actually consider it 4 phases I think.
One for each set of the guys, then when they come together. We had
some high dps in there, and it was a good thing too as we were a bit
sloppy. If not for the buff given at 4.2, I feel that alas - we
probably would have wiped. The only thing that makes me feel not so bad
is that we are a casual raid group and we got up to the council before
the nerf, so at least we took down the first two bosses in both BoT and
BWD pre-nerf. Haven't attempted the temple of the winds instance yet...

Lancelet

9/8/2011 6:04:00 AM

0

IYM <"S U N risr"@optonline.net> wrote in
news:j450d5$90p$1@dont-email.me:

>
> Our guild is much like yours... :)
>
> We're on Cho'gall now and took the council down in 3 attempts once
> everyone got a feel for it. They actually consider it 4 phases I
> think.
> One for each set of the guys, then when they come together. We had

Are there three sets of the guys? I thought it was Fire+Water, then
Air+Hearth, then all of them in one guy.

> some high dps in there, and it was a good thing too as we were a bit
> sloppy. If not for the buff given at 4.2, I feel that alas - we
> probably would have wiped. The only thing that makes me feel not so
> bad is that we are a casual raid group and we got up to the council
> before the nerf, so at least we took down the first two bosses in both
> BoT and BWD pre-nerf. Haven't attempted the temple of the winds
> instance yet...

Without the nerf, I don't know were we would be.

There was a raid tuesday, the guild killed the ascendants and tried
Cho'gall. Tonight we should try the raid of Al'akir.

S U N risr

9/8/2011 11:31:00 AM

0

On 9/8/2011 2:04 AM, Lancelet wrote:
> IYM<"S U N risr"@optonline.net> wrote in
> news:j450d5$90p$1@dont-email.me:
>
>>
>> Our guild is much like yours... :)
>>
>> We're on Cho'gall now and took the council down in 3 attempts once
>> everyone got a feel for it. They actually consider it 4 phases I
>> think.
>> One for each set of the guys, then when they come together. We had
>
> Are there three sets of the guys? I thought it was Fire+Water, then
> Air+Hearth, then all of them in one guy.

Yea - was off by a group... :)

>
>> some high dps in there, and it was a good thing too as we were a bit
>> sloppy. If not for the buff given at 4.2, I feel that alas - we
>> probably would have wiped. The only thing that makes me feel not so
>> bad is that we are a casual raid group and we got up to the council
>> before the nerf, so at least we took down the first two bosses in both
>> BoT and BWD pre-nerf. Haven't attempted the temple of the winds
>> instance yet...
>
> Without the nerf, I don't know were we would be.
>
> There was a raid tuesday, the guild killed the ascendants and tried
> Cho'gall. Tonight we should try the raid of Al'akir.

Cho'gall isn't that bad *if* you have in your group some high AoE
killers. From my limited experience, the fight is all on the tanks
and burning down the adds. If you can do that, it shouldn't be a prob.
As a dps, I just know to stay out of crap, de-spell the cc'd players
asap if possible, and pew-pew until adds. Adds out, run to back kill
add, then AoE spawns. Use slow or any other freezing capability on the
spawned adds. Hunter Ice traps are great, mage circle of frost and/or
frost nova work nice to try and keep them in one spot. Next phase
pew-pew tentacles asap and the rest is pretty easy...The tanks have most
of the work watching stacks and the such, but nothing a raid tank isn't
used to. :)

neithskye

9/8/2011 3:11:00 PM

0

On Sep 8, 7:31 am, IYM <"S U N risr"@optonline.net> wrote:


> Cho'gall isn't that bad *if* you have in your group some high AoE
> killers. From my limited experience,  the fight is all on the tanks
> and burning down the adds.  If you can do that, it shouldn't be a prob.
>   As a dps, I just know to stay out of crap, de-spell the cc'd players
> asap if possible, and pew-pew until adds. Adds out, run to back kill
> add, then AoE spawns. Use slow or any other freezing capability on the
> spawned adds.  Hunter Ice traps are great, mage circle of frost and/or
> frost nova work nice to try and keep them in one spot. Next phase
> pew-pew tentacles asap and the rest is pretty easy...The tanks have most
> of the work watching stacks and the such, but nothing a raid tank isn't
> used to.  :)

If I could add . . . in the last phase, assign people to not only kill
but *interrupt* those Darkened Creations. Even my Holy Paladin runs
around and Rebukes the heck out of them. They cast Debilitating Beam,
reducing healing taken and damage done. Of course, your raid still
takes full damage. Nothing like seeing your Holy Shock crit for 500
when someone is dying.

As for Tof4W, as a Paladin I hate the Conclave of Wind fight. Me and a
Paladin tank just bubble through the first special, so all I really do
this fight is heal the tank. At least in a raid I can heal other
people, cast AoE heals, but here it's . . . heal tank, heal tank.
*yawn*

I suppose I'm weird, but I *love* the Al'Akir fight. It's just so
crazy.

Tell your healers not to be afraid to blow all cooldowns and mana
healing that first phase. They will get mana back in the second phase.
Just survive that first phase; after that, it's up to everyone to
avoid damage, like not getting caught in the Squall Line.

If you have Vent, try to have a designated person to call out the
Squall Lines, like "Left three".

As a Paladin, note that Hand of Freedom works on the frost patch on
the ground, so if you see someone stuck right before a Wind Blast, HoF
is great.

Every time I'm there, I marvel at the size of this guy. I mean, he's
huge.

Good luck. :-)

--
Jill

ting

9/9/2011 5:58:00 PM

0

On Sep 5, 2:55 am, Lancelet <lancelet.nos...@merci.invalid> wrote:
> We usually raid on tuesday and thirsday only, but since our raidleader
> want to finish the three first raids before going to the Firelands (and I
> totally agree), we added sunday night to our schedule.

One of the key things you can do, in order to progress faster, is to
minimize downtime during your raid. This doesn't mean rushing, but
more like setting a deliberate pace that you can sustain for the
entire 3-4 hours you are raiding. Below are some simple ways to get
your guild to raid more, in the same amount of time.

1. Give out a small bonus to people who show up early, who can help
you clear out initial trash mobs.

2. Clear trash with only 8 people (in a 10 man, 18 people in a 25
man). As long as you have a few hybrids with off specs, you can clear
trash understaffed. I've cleared trash with only half a raid before.
I've even killed bosses, for the first time, understaffed.

3. Clear trash while looting. There's no need for everyone to stand
around doing nothing during loot distribution as most of the raid
won't even be able to use the loot. Delegate a dps/healer officer to
distribute loot so that the tanks can go clear trash.

4. Chain pull the trash. I don't mean pull everything all at once, but
pull a pack, and just as that pack dies, pull the next pack. Get
people used to very little down time between pulls. If someone needs
mana, they should be spamming their drink button near the end of a
trash pull, and they should be doing that all the time, so that they
only need 3-5 seconds of drinking time at any given time (ie, get
casters in the habit of taking lots of small drinks, rather than a
long drink).

5. Get people used to handing out mage water and applying buffs on the
fly, during trash pulls. There's no need for everyone else to be idle
while buffing or handing out water. Make them walk and chew gum at the
same time. Chide them if you have to. If someone missing a buff,
because they were too far away, or outside the instance, it's not an
excuse - the buffer should be watching out for that and tossing out
single buffs - after all, there are mods that show missing buffs.
Worse case, the person missing the buff should be whispering a buffer
for it.

6. Discuss strategies before the raid begins, and disseminate the
information to your guild members before hand, so that most (if not
all) know what you plan to do during the raid. The last place you want
to be discussing strategy is during the raid.

7. Give out strategy based upon role. Don't worry about telling people
overall strategy - that just confuses them. Healers don't need to know
what the ranged dps do. If someone wants to know the full strategy,
they should have asked before the raid began. There's not enough time
during the raid to tell people things that don't apply to them.

8. Clamp down on lengthy discussions. Just pull the boss instead. You
learn a lot about whether or not the strategy is viable just by
pulling the boss. Plus it's easier to talk about nuances of the
strategy after people have seen the fight. Aka, if a fight is only 5
minutes long, you should not be spending 10 minutes talking about it.

9. Everyone runs back after a wipe. I don't care if a paladin divine
interventioned a rezzer, or if you have the mass rez ability. You
still run back unless you hear otherwise over ventrillo. Casting
resurrection, even mass resurrection, wastes more time during a full
wipe, compared to everyone just running back. It's because if people
know they'll get a rez, they wander off to do stuff and don't get
around to accepting the rez for another minute. You need to take a bio
break after a wipe? Run back first, then announce that you need a
break over ventrillo, but you have to run back first. The reason for
that is so that others can buff you during your break.

10. Delegate, delegate, delegate. One person should not be handling
everything - there should be an officer corps. Aka, if a tank isn't
doing the right thing, your tank officer should be dealing with it, so
you don't have to. Also, if you are handling loot, make sure there's
another officer who can move the raid along, towards the next boss.

11. Lots of people will want to enchant/gem up a new piece of loot.
They can do whatever they want, as long as they don't leave the
instance to do it. That new piece of loot isn't going to be the make
or break thing that kills the boss, so if they have mats on hand to
enchant/gem, then great. If not, they can wait until the raid is over.

12. No lollygagging. People should be killing trash, running to the
next fight, or standing in front of the boss, discussing last minute
strategy changes/assignments. Everything else can be done as
background tasks.

13. Have a dedicated warning caller, during the fight (usually a
ranged or melee dps), because someone in your raid will be too
engrossed doing their own thing to see the raid warnings pop up. The
raid warning caller serves as a quick "wake me up" over ventrillo, and
it will save you many wipes.

Basically, you want to get your guild to get in the habit of being
efficient. You want them to get in the habit of being a disciplined,
well oiled machine. You want guild members to come back from a pug
raid and complain that it was full of grade school kids who couldn't
tie their own shoelaces, because everything they did took 3 times
longer than it should have.
--
// T.Hsu

SF

9/9/2011 8:44:00 PM

0

Op 9-9-2011 19:58, ting@thsu.org schreef:

> Basically, you want to get your guild to get in the habit of being
> efficient. You want them to get in the habit of being a disciplined,
> well oiled machine. You want guild members to come back from a pug
> raid and complain that it was full of grade school kids who couldn't
> tie their own shoelaces, because everything they did took 3 times
> longer than it should have.
> --
> // T.Hsu

Thank god i'm, not in your guild. You might not perhaps now this, but
wow is a game.

SF

ting

9/9/2011 11:20:00 PM

0

On Sep 9, 4:44 pm, SF <S...@iets.nl> wrote:
> Thank god i'm, not in your guild. You might not perhaps now this, but
> wow is a game.

Softball is just a game. Soccer is just a game. Hockey is just a game.
You can say nearly any social activity is just a game.

Do you want your soccer games to start a half hour late, all the time,
because half your team hasn't shown up? Does your team take a long
intermission, so that they are always late to the second half? Do your
substitutions take 5 minutes to implement, because players just sit
down in the field, texting on their phone, in the middle of a game?

No? What, you mean that people play soccer more seriously than that?
Then they must not be having fun. What? You mean that people can still
play soccer seriously and have fun at the same time? Get out of here,
when did that happen?

Raiding in World of Warcraft is the same thing. If your guild likes to
waste time, hey go for it. My guild only plays 6 hours a week. Fun for
us is doing as much as we can in the few hours we play. Nefarian?
Dead, 6 months ago, on 6 hours a week play time.

We're all getting pretty bored of the game though. I think we spent
more time playing disc golf with each other than WoW during the
summer.
--
// T.Hsu

ald

9/10/2011 2:23:00 AM

0

On Fri, 9 Sep 2011 16:19:44 -0700 (PDT), ting@thsu.org wrote:

>On Sep 9, 4:44 pm, SF <S...@iets.nl> wrote:
>> Thank god i'm, not in your guild. You might not perhaps now this, but
>> wow is a game.
>
>Softball is just a game. Soccer is just a game. Hockey is just a game.
>You can say nearly any social activity is just a game.
>
>Do you want your soccer games to start a half hour late, all the time,
>because half your team hasn't shown up? Does your team take a long
>intermission, so that they are always late to the second half? Do your
>substitutions take 5 minutes to implement, because players just sit
>down in the field, texting on their phone, in the middle of a game?
>
>No? What, you mean that people play soccer more seriously than that?
>Then they must not be having fun. What? You mean that people can still
>play soccer seriously and have fun at the same time? Get out of here,
>when did that happen?
>
>Raiding in World of Warcraft is the same thing. If your guild likes to
>waste time, hey go for it. My guild only plays 6 hours a week. Fun for
>us is doing as much as we can in the few hours we play. Nefarian?
>Dead, 6 months ago, on 6 hours a week play time.
>
>We're all getting pretty bored of the game though. I think we spent
>more time playing disc golf with each other than WoW during the
>summer.

And you don't see the correlation between that and the raiding
attitude you described? I certainly wouldn't have said thank God I'm
not in your guild, but what you described sounded a lot more to me
like an occupation (read: job) than a pastime.

Now, to be fair, I need to mention that I am not, nor ever will be, in
a raiding guild. But reading your post reminded me of several of the
reasons why that is so ;-)

--
ald
reply via email to ald_007_1999 at yahoo dot com

ting

9/10/2011 6:08:00 AM

0

On Sep 9, 10:23 pm, ald <103175.3...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> And you don't see the correlation between that and the raiding
> attitude you described? I certainly wouldn't have said thank God I'm
> not in your guild, but what you described sounded a lot more to me
> like an occupation (read: job) than a pastime.

Have you ever done anything for a long period of time? What you find
enjoyable changes completely over that time span.

I've been skating for over ten years now. There are lots of people who
have been skating ten years, but they fall into two broad categories:
A. Those who have 10 years of experience.
B. Those who have 1 year of experience, 10 times in a row.

Doing (A) is both more rewarding and less rewarding than doing (B).
The less rewarding part is easy to see, as it takes more effort,
discipline, and dedication to go the (A) route. But with that effort
comes a sense of accomplishment, every time see your hard work pay
off. That sense of accomplishment really only happens during the first
year for those in group (B)..
--
// T.Hsu

Ashen Shugar

9/10/2011 8:57:00 AM

0

On Sep 10, 12:23 pm, ald <103175.3...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Sep 2011 16:19:44 -0700 (PDT), t...@thsu.org wrote:
> >On Sep 9, 4:44 pm, SF <S...@iets.nl> wrote:
> >> Thank god i'm, not in your guild. You might not perhaps now this, but
> >> wow is a game.
>
> >Softball is just a game. Soccer is just a game. Hockey is just a game.
> >You can say nearly any social activity is just a game.
>
> >Do you want your soccer games to start a half hour late, all the time,
> >because half your team hasn't shown up? Does your team take a long
> >intermission, so that they are always late to the second half? Do your
> >substitutions take 5 minutes to implement, because players just sit
> >down in the field, texting on their phone, in the middle of a game?
>
> >No? What, you mean that people play soccer more seriously than that?
> >Then they must not be having fun. What? You mean that people can still
> >play soccer seriously and have fun at the same time? Get out of here,
> >when did that happen?
>
> >Raiding in World of Warcraft is the same thing. If your guild likes to
> >waste time, hey go for it. My guild only plays 6 hours a week. Fun for
> >us is doing as much as we can in the few hours we play. Nefarian?
> >Dead, 6 months ago, on 6 hours a week play time.
>
> >We're all getting pretty bored of the game though. I think we spent
> >more time playing disc golf with each other than WoW during the
> >summer.
>
> And you don't see the correlation between that and the raiding
> attitude you described? I certainly wouldn't have said thank God I'm
> not in your guild, but what you described sounded a lot more to me
> like an occupation (read: job) than a pastime.
>
> Now, to be fair, I need to mention that I am not, nor ever will be, in
> a raiding guild. But reading your post reminded me of several of the
> reasons why that is so ;-)
>

Well, considering that I haven't set foot in any Cata raids, saw Wrath
raids maybe half a dozen times and TBC raids (mostly Kara) a dozen
times and I'm *also* getting pretty bored of the game, I'm not sure
there *is* any correlation between that raiding attitude and getting
bored of the game.

And really, the 13 points made to streamline raiding are doing just
that. Streamlining it, not forcing everyone into a machine like
obedience. It's mostly just asking people that if they've come to
play WoW, then actually play WoW and don't use it as just some sort of
flashy Instant Messenger program. At least not during the 6 hours a
week set aside for raiding. And it's not like you can't still have a
fun, relaxed time even while keeping things moving along at a
reasonable pace. You should come along on one of my drunken tanking
binges sometime. ;p

--
Ashen Shugar