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mbernocco

4/29/2011 7:51:00 AM

To: alt.games.warcraft
http://picopoli.mymin...

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15 Answers

Ed Stasiak

9/9/2013 5:41:00 PM

0

> Ken from Chicago
>
> Here we go, here's the scene in real time:

And as you can see, Hank and Gomez are only 25-30 yards
away from the Stormfront Gang when they open fire on them
with several automatic weapons.

Now the scene ended in a cliff-hanger, so we don't know what
happened but Hank and Gomez could not have survived.

Add to that; Hanks foreshadowing phone call to Marie right
before the Stormfront Gang showed up, suggests they're dead
but the scene was choreographed badly and in typical Hollywood
fashion.

Obveeus

9/9/2013 5:56:00 PM

0


"Ed Stasiak" <a57160b@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message
news:pqd1gaxr8r.ln2@news.ezprovider.com...
>> Ken from Chicago
>>
>> Here we go, here's the scene in real time:
>
> And as you can see, Hank and Gomez are only 25-30 yards
> away from the Stormfront Gang when they open fire on them
> with several automatic weapons.
>
> Now the scene ended in a cliff-hanger, so we don't know what
> happened but Hank and Gomez could not have survived.
>
> Add to that; Hanks foreshadowing phone call to Marie right
> before the Stormfront Gang showed up,

Yep...poor Walter White could get blamed for Hank's death even though he was
doing everything he could to save the guy again.

> suggests they're dead
> but the scene was choreographed badly and in typical Hollywood
> fashion.

Yep...like an old western film.

SIDE NOTE: I still find it annoying that they are pretending that cell
phones work in the New Mexico desert.

Pinstripe Sniper

9/9/2013 7:39:00 PM

0

"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nospam@comcast.net> wrote:
>"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> But Declan and crew were a TRE (Target-Rich Environment). With a lot of
>> targets it's hard NOT to hit something. Also, as we've learned from
>> UNFORGIVEN and other westerns that inspire BREAKING BAD, shooting a man,
>> or two, can be difficult if you're shaky, frightened or flush with
>> barely-contained excitement and the targets remain calm and fire back
>> forcing you to duck for cover or even just unconsciously flinch.

Lol, citing movies for examples of shooting realism.
What you wrote supports Hank and pardner missing - not the 6 baddies
-most of whom had supported aiming positions. (leaning against
vehicles)

>> Plus the gang was at some distance and the scene was shot in slo-mo so
>> there might have only been a few seconds of real time from when Hank and
>> Gomez were firing out in the open until they got behind that 4x4.

>Here we go, here's the scene in real time:
>(Around the 1:35 mark)
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=rHMytk...


Ed and I are saying Hank and Pardner should not have even been able to
make it to cover.

When the shooting starts, they both return fire before ducking down -
ie the baddies *completely* miss even though they open fire first.

I replayed the build up and the shootout several times before posting
my first reply in this thread. The distance between the shooters is
less than 80 feet at the build up and actually shrinks by ~15 ft when
Hank and Gomez are behind the SUV.

>We see the angle of the firepower is across the 4x4 and Hank and Gomez take
>only a few steps before they are kneeling behind it.

True.

>The way the camera
>angles are shot in the episode, it gave the appearance of the two being
>further out in the open by the time the shooting starts.

True - but Gomez is still a standing stationary target, fully exposed.
Also, I assume ( if this was a real life shoot out) his shotgun would
either have some type of buckshot or slug. If slug, then missing is
believable, but with "0" shot or larger, he should have been able to
hit a baddie. LOL, beanbag round?

One of the baddies had a shotgun too but also missed.
To morph a line from Prince Bride "Fake! Fake! Fakeeeeeee!"

>The cameras zoom in on everyone, but because Hank and Gomez have the rocky
>walls far enough behind, it gives the appearance they are slowly walking
>closer to the gang out in the open while considering to show their badges.

>The slo-mo combined with the time elapsed it seemed like the two had enough
>time to actually walk past the 4x4 to show their badges (if they so chose).
>
>-- Ken from Chicago

Ed Stasiak

9/9/2013 8:02:00 PM

0

> Pinstripe Sniper
>
> The distance between the shooters is less than 80 feet at the build up
> and actually shrinks by ~15 ft when Hank and Gomez are behind the SUV.

Using this pic as reference;
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q169/estasiak/shootout1378746...

A Ford F-150 crew cab long bed pick-up has a wheelbase of 173" and
measuring the image on my monitor, I get around 5-1/2 "wheelbase lengths"
from the front wheel of the truck to Hank / Gomez.

That works out to roughly 950" / 36" in a yard = 26 yards.

No way Hank and Gomez could have survived when the Stormfront Gang
opened up on them with 3 full-auto AR type rifles, a full-auto AA-12
shotgun
and two handguns.

Ken from Chicago

9/9/2013 9:00:00 PM

0

"Obveeus" <Obveeus@aol.com> wrote in message
news:l0l234$idm$1@dont-email.me...
>
> "Ed Stasiak" <a57160b@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message
> news:pqd1gaxr8r.ln2@news.ezprovider.com...
>>> Ken from Chicago
>>>
>>> Here we go, here's the scene in real time:
>>
>> And as you can see, Hank and Gomez are only 25-30 yards
>> away from the Stormfront Gang when they open fire on them
>> with several automatic weapons.
>>
>> Now the scene ended in a cliff-hanger, so we don't know what
>> happened but Hank and Gomez could not have survived.
>>
>> Add to that; Hanks foreshadowing phone call to Marie right
>> before the Stormfront Gang showed up,
>
> Yep...poor Walter White could get blamed for Hank's death even though he
> was doing everything he could to save the guy again.

That would explain Carol's shocked reaction in the flash forward.

"Hi, Carol."

>> suggests they're dead
>> but the scene was choreographed badly and in typical Hollywood
>> fashion.
>
> Yep...like an old western film.
>
> SIDE NOTE: I still find it annoying that they are pretending that cell
> phones work in the New Mexico desert.

Maybe the reservation got hooked up with a cellular provider or several.

-- Ken from Chicago

Hunter

9/9/2013 11:53:00 PM

0

In article <l0k6vu$m58$1@dont-email.me>, kwicker1b_nospam@comcast.net says...
>
> "Ed Stasiak" <a57160b@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message
> news:n7rvfax9c5.ln2@news.ezprovider.com...
> > I still like Todd but I have to admit, he's a dumbass.
>
> Todd is ... "touched" ... in the head. He's doing quite well for not playing
> with quite a full deck. If his parentage was anything like his Uncle Jack
> and friend, Todd is doing remarkably well.
----
I don't think he is crazy, but he is a sociopath. It is funny; he seems like
such a likable nice guy but he would kill you in a second.
>
> > "Science!"
> >
> > What happened to Baby Holly, who Walt was holding when he walked
> > into the car wash, after he saw Saul standing there? Walt dashed out
> > and returns sans-baby and carries on a conversation with Saul, while
> > Skyler and Jr. run the cash register
>
> Maybe he put the baby back in his office.
----
That was exactly my thought as well. I thought maybe he put her back in the car
and forgot but Hank and Gomez "cleared" Walt's car and of course Jesse was put
it Walt's car so that rules that out. I doubt Walt left her on the street LOL!
>
> > LOL! Huel immediately spills all the beans.
>
> No, Huell did NOT immediately spill all the beans. It was only after seeing
> a photo of Jesse--with all of his "brains" spilled out--then Huell talked.
----
True, but it was only for a few minutes he held out LOL!
>
> > These guys sure can write a great story... until it come to firearms.
> >
> > Are we to believe that the Stormfront Gang, who managed to wipe out
> > Declan's heavily armed and ready-for-action gang, turn into Imperial
> > Stormtroopers when it's just Hank and Gomez standing out in the open?
>
> But Declan and crew were a TRE (Target-Rich Environment). With a lot of
> targets it's hard NOT to hit something. Also, as we've learned from
> UNFORGIVEN and other westerns that inspire BREAKING BAD, shooting a man, or
> two, can be difficult if you're shaky, frightened or flush with
> barely-contained excitement and the targets remain calm and fire back
> forcing you to duck for cover or even just unconsciously flinch.
----
I see what you mean but I don't think that is the case now. They seemed very
cold and collected when they opened up at Hank and Gomez. I think it was just
that the distance-it seems like they were about 100 ft apart-gave Hank and
Gomez a break and was able to avoid the initial fusillade.

On the other hand the gun fight-execution really-of DeClan's crew was up close
and personal. They were taking face to face before Jack killed them. Rewatching
that scene I noticed a few head shots so the range was very close then, quite
different now.
>
> Plus the gang was at some distance and the scene was shot in slo-mo so there
> might have only been a few seconds of real time from when Hank and Gomez
> were firing out in the open until they got behind that 4x4.
>
> -- Ken from Chicago
----
Yes as I mentioned it seemed to be about 100 feet between them and yes it was
in slow motion so maybe only a second or three of actual time between Jack
opening up and Hank and Gomez diving for cover had passed.
--
----->Hunter

"No man in the wrong can stand up against
a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'."

-----William J. McDonald
Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

Hunter

9/10/2013 3:02:00 AM

0

In article <l0k8ti$v6a$1@dont-email.me>, kwicker1b_nospam@comcast.net says...
>
> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:l0k6vu$m58$1@dont-email.me...
> > "Ed Stasiak" <a57160b@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:n7rvfax9c5.ln2@news.ezprovider.com...
>
> <snip>
>
> >> These guys sure can write a great story... until it come to firearms.
> >>
> >> Are we to believe that the Stormfront Gang, who managed to wipe out
> >> Declan's heavily armed and ready-for-action gang, turn into Imperial
> >> Stormtroopers when it's just Hank and Gomez standing out in the open?
> >
> > But Declan and crew were a TRE (Target-Rich Environment). With a lot of
> > targets it's hard NOT to hit something. Also, as we've learned from
> > UNFORGIVEN and other westerns that inspire BREAKING BAD, shooting a man,
> > or two, can be difficult if you're shaky, frightened or flush with
> > barely-contained excitement and the targets remain calm and fire back
> > forcing you to duck for cover or even just unconsciously flinch.
> >
> > Plus the gang was at some distance and the scene was shot in slo-mo so
> > there might have only been a few seconds of real time from when Hank and
> > Gomez were firing out in the open until they got behind that 4x4.
> >
> > -- Ken from Chicago
>
> Here we go, here's the scene in real time:
> (Around the 1:35 mark)
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=rHMytk...
>
> We see the angle of the firepower is across the 4x4 and Hank and Gomez take
> only a few steps before they are kneeling behind it. The way the camera
> angles are shot in the episode, it gave the appearance of the two being
> further out in the open by the time the shooting starts.
>
> The cameras zoom in on everyone, but because Hank and Gomez have the rocky
> walls far enough behind, it gives the appearance they are slowly walking
> closer to the gang out in the open while considering to show their badges.
> The slo-mo combined with the time elapsed it seemed like the two had enough
> time to actually walk past the 4x4 to show their badges (if they so chose).
>
> -- Ken from Chicago
----
Here are two screen grabs that I think better indicate the distance between
them:

http://tinyurl.c...

As I said I think there is about 100 feet of separation.

Yes, at the begining of the fire fight Gomez does appear to be walking out in
the open towards Jack's crew but he is of course really making for the SUV for
cover which is in front of him. You can see where Gomez was in relation to the
SUV in this pic:

http://tinyurl.c...
--
----->Hunter

"No man in the wrong can stand up against
a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'."

-----William J. McDonald
Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

Pinstripe Sniper

9/10/2013 7:49:00 PM

0

LOL! Ed, I used the same scene to scale off the distances.

"Ed Stasiak" <a57160b@webnntp.invalid> wrote:

>> Pinstripe Sniper
>>
>> The distance between the shooters is less than 80 feet at the build up
>> and actually shrinks by ~15 ft when Hank and Gomez are behind the SUV.
>
>Using this pic as reference;
>http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q169/estasiak/shootout1378746...
>
>A Ford F-150 crew cab long bed pick-up has a wheelbase of 173" and
>measuring the image on my monitor, I get around 5-1/2 "wheelbase lengths"
>from the front wheel of the truck to Hank / Gomez.
>
>That works out to roughly 950" / 36" in a yard = 26 yards.
>
>No way Hank and Gomez could have survived when the Stormfront Gang
>opened up on them with 3 full-auto AR type rifles, a full-auto AA-12
>shotgun
>and two handguns.

Hunter

9/10/2013 11:06:00 PM

0

In article <hf5s29laqbkkudjn1pk72dcotml28jhm6r@4ax.com>, verysorry@nocando.com
says...
>
> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nospam@comcast.net> wrote:
> >"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >> But Declan and crew were a TRE (Target-Rich Environment). With a lot of
> >> targets it's hard NOT to hit something. Also, as we've learned from
> >> UNFORGIVEN and other westerns that inspire BREAKING BAD, shooting a man,
> >> or two, can be difficult if you're shaky, frightened or flush with
> >> barely-contained excitement and the targets remain calm and fire back
> >> forcing you to duck for cover or even just unconsciously flinch.
>
> Lol, citing movies for examples of shooting realism.
> What you wrote supports Hank and pardner missing - not the 6 baddies
> -most of whom had supported aiming positions. (leaning against
> vehicles)
----
I think the real instance of Blackhawk Down in Somalia in 1993 is relevant in
which a lot of automatic fire is employed but the hits are relatively few. If
not then the Rangers and regular troops then would've been slaughtered.

At anyrate I think at least Hank had better cover than at first realized.
>
> >> Plus the gang was at some distance and the scene was shot in slo-mo so
> >> there might have only been a few seconds of real time from when Hank and
> >> Gomez were firing out in the open until they got behind that 4x4.
>
> >Here we go, here's the scene in real time:
> >(Around the 1:35 mark)
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=rHMytk...
>
>
> Ed and I are saying Hank and Pardner should not have even been able to
> make it to cover.
---
Rewatching the scene several times myself and the screen shots I took I could
agree with Gomez not making it but Hank was practically already behind the SUV
at the time the shoot out began.
>
> When the shooting starts, they both return fire before ducking down -
> ie the baddies *completely* miss even though they open fire first.
---
True. Needless to say I think we all can agree to discount the participants
with just the hand guns like Jack, Todd and Hank and concentrate on those with
long guns like Gomez and about four of the bad guys, at least one of them had a
AR-15 or similar assault rifle.
>
> I replayed the build up and the shootout several times before posting
> my first reply in this thread. The distance between the shooters is
> less than 80 feet at the build up and actually shrinks by ~15 ft when
> Hank and Gomez are behind the SUV.
---
I don't think it is less than 80 feet before Hank and Gomez moved for cover:

http://tinyurl.c...

I do think it was about 80 feet by the time Hank and Gomez got behind the SUV.

However seconds before the shootout started Hank was practically behind the SUV
already and inching over. All screen grabs taken just before the fire fight
commenced:

From Hank's POV:

http://tinyurl.c...

He is close to the truck and is just a step or two from being behind it and as
mentioned he was inching toward it as the Mexican stand off held.

From Gomez's POV:

http://tinyurl.c...

He is a couple of steps to Hank's right and in the open. The more I think about
it the more I think he may have been hit.

From Jack and Todd's POV:

http://tinyurl.c...

As one can see from Jack and Todd's POV Hank had good cover-or at least Jack
and Todd and two other henchmen had a bad angle on Hank. To the extreme left of
Jack (the guy in the black jacket) are two more guys with assault weapons who
probably had a little better view of Hank. Gomez is exposed even to Jack and
Todd, although since they are armed with hand guns and so much more likely to
miss it doesn't really matter.

Maybe Gomez was hit but could be having a delayed reaction due to the adrenalin
flowing.
>
> >We see the angle of the firepower is across the 4x4 and Hank and Gomez take
> >only a few steps before they are kneeling behind it.
>
> True.
----
But I think as outlined above Gomez if anyone will be hit.
>
> >The way the camera
> >angles are shot in the episode, it gave the appearance of the two being
> >further out in the open by the time the shooting starts.
>
> True - but Gomez is still a standing stationary target, fully exposed.
> Also, I assume ( if this was a real life shoot out) his shotgun would
> either have some type of buckshot or slug. If slug, then missing is
> believable, but with "0" shot or larger, he should have been able to
> hit a baddie. LOL, beanbag round?
-----
Is there a significant spread of the pellets after a certain distance?
>
> One of the baddies had a shotgun too but also missed.
> To morph a line from Prince Bride "Fake! Fake! Fakeeeeeee!"
----
You mean the one with the AA-15 Atchisson Assault Shotgun? He would've had a
very bad angle on Hank but a better one on Gomez, but even so I don't think the
automatic shotgun will not be as accurate as a rifle.
(snip)
--
----->Hunter

"No man in the wrong can stand up against
a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'."

-----William J. McDonald
Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907

Dano

9/12/2013 6:20:00 PM

0

"Hunter" wrote in message
news:MPG.2c9bd311d4f533b598ae08@news.optonline.net...

In article <l0l234$idm$1@dont-email.me>, Obveeus@aol.com says...
>
> "Ed Stasiak" <a57160b@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message
> news:pqd1gaxr8r.ln2@news.ezprovider.com...
> >> Ken from Chicago
> >>
> >> Here we go, here's the scene in real time:
> >
> > And as you can see, Hank and Gomez are only 25-30 yards
> > away from the Stormfront Gang when they open fire on them
> > with several automatic weapons.
> >
> > Now the scene ended in a cliff-hanger, so we don't know what
> > happened but Hank and Gomez could not have survived.
> >
> > Add to that; Hanks foreshadowing phone call to Marie right
> > before the Stormfront Gang showed up,
>
> Yep...poor Walter White could get blamed for Hank's death even though he
> was
> doing everything he could to save the guy again.
----
Walt's criminal activity is responsible for Hank's and Gomez's 95% certain
death. If Walter didn't cook meth in the first place, Hank wouldn't be in
that
predicament.
>
> > suggests they're dead
> > but the scene was choreographed badly and in typical Hollywood
> > fashion.
>
> Yep...like an old western film.
>
> SIDE NOTE: I still find it annoying that they are pretending that cell
> phones work in the New Mexico desert.

-----
Actually the To'hajiilee Indian Reservation is just 32 miles west of
Albuquerque, so cell reception should be pretty good.

=====================================

Good lord...you're an expert on THAT too?

Doesn't seem a safe assumption to me at all. I've found dead sots in the
metro Boston area in well to do towns who won't let a tower be built near
them. Certainly not 32 miles from another tower or repeater. I would think
a sat-phone would be required out there in the middle of nowhere. You are
the group's own Cliff Claven.