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How not to suck in Cata

petertrei

11/29/2010 11:53:00 PM

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/795945-What-Wrath-players-need-to-know-to-not-su...!

Interesting summary. Not much new, but its all in one place.

pt
21 Answers

nuts

11/30/2010 9:49:00 AM

0

Cryptoengineer wrote:
> http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/795945-What-Wrath-players-need-to-know-to-not-su...!
>
> Interesting summary. Not much new, but its all in one place.

I have been playing Wrath only for a couple of months but I wonder if it
was the same when it first came out.
I mean, the web guides I read were all "don't expect to just burn the
mobs, in wrath you will need to use CC, careful positioning, spell
interrupts, etc". So there's two options:

1. the web guides were wrong
2. wrath content has been nerfed (or players have been powered-up)

Rob Wynne

11/30/2010 10:20:00 AM

0

nuts <nuspammed@re.net> wrote:
> Cryptoengineer wrote:
>> http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/795945-What-Wrath-players-need-to-know-to-not-su...!
>>
>> Interesting summary. Not much new, but its all in one place.
>
> I have been playing Wrath only for a couple of months but I wonder if it
> was the same when it first came out.
> I mean, the web guides I read were all "don't expect to just burn the
> mobs, in wrath you will need to use CC, careful positioning, spell
> interrupts, etc". So there's two options:
>
> 1. the web guides were wrong
> 2. wrath content has been nerfed (or players have been powered-up)

To a certain degree, both.

When we first started raiding in Wrath, my guild's motto was "Will it
blend?", and the answer was almost always yes. I considered it a cruel
irony as a hunter that at level 80 we were finally given a ranged trap for
CC, and then never given a single opportunity to use it. (While I don't
play a hunter any more, I shudder to think how hunters in Cataclysm are
going to fare with the need to do *actual* CC. Effective trapping was
always one of those skills that set the hunter above the huntard, and even
the best of players will likely have found their skills atrophied from
non-use after two years of WOTLK.)

Wrath content has in some cases been nerfed, but in large part, we're just
all highly overgared. With badges being so easy to come by and the LFD
system making it trivial to find a dungeon group, there's really nothing to
prevent a new 80 from gearing up to ICC levels quickly. All those heroic
dungeons were tuned for people wearing level 187 blues, and 251 epics
pretty well rip right through stuff. There are few fights in heroics which
have complex enough mechanics to be challenging to the overgeared player; a
lot of the fights which were complex can now just be weathered if you don't
feel like doing the dance steps, and dps is high enough to burn the bosses
quickly enough that there's no real problem. (I was chain running heroics
this weekend for Bildgewater rep, and got in one great group where we were
joking about DBM popping new killspeed records on most of the bosses. Some
of them were going down in less than 15-20 seconds.

Blizzard is always trying to find the balance between challenge and
accessability. Since these are somewhat diametrically opposed concepts,
one tends to be boosted at the expense of the other, and Blizzard has been
quite clear over the last couple of years that they lean in the direction
of accessabilty when it comes down to it. (And I personally think they've
done a pretty stellar job of it, but I was never a hardcore player.)

--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / doc@america.net
http://www.autograph... / http://autographedcat.livejo...
Gafilk 2011: Jan 7-9, 2011 - Atlanta, GA - http://www.g...
Aphelion - Original SF&F since 1997 - http://www.aphelion-we...

Catriona R

11/30/2010 10:32:00 AM

0


On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 10:19:42 +0000 (UTC), Rob Wynne <doc@america.net>
wrote:

>Wrath content has in some cases been nerfed, but in large part, we're just
>all highly overgared. With badges being so easy to come by and the LFD
>system making it trivial to find a dungeon group, there's really nothing to
>prevent a new 80 from gearing up to ICC levels quickly. All those heroic
>dungeons were tuned for people wearing level 187 blues, and 251 epics
>pretty well rip right through stuff. There are few fights in heroics which
>have complex enough mechanics to be challenging to the overgeared player; a
>lot of the fights which were complex can now just be weathered if you don't
>feel like doing the dance steps, and dps is high enough to burn the bosses
>quickly enough that there's no real problem. (I was chain running heroics
>this weekend for Bildgewater rep, and got in one great group where we were
>joking about DBM popping new killspeed records on most of the bosses. Some
>of them were going down in less than 15-20 seconds.

I ran Drak'Tharon a couple of days ago, first time in a while, I'd
previously never considered getting the Consumption Junction
achievement (kill Trollgore before reaching X stacks of Consume or
somesuch) in a pug, since from all I'd heard it requires coordination
and line of sighting and stuff to do it. Well... health burned down at
one heck of a rate and boom, achievement. That was hard... :-P Current
gear levels make all the old heroics tricial, heck, I barely had
anything to do that run, except the odd flash heal on the DK dps who
kept pulling aggro! The tank needed nothing beyond the odd renew here
and there, most the time I was desperately trying to cast even one
single damage spell before the mob died ;-) TotC and the ICC 5-mans
still take rather more healing, but the originals are a walk in the
park now, so long as you don't get a chronically undergeared tank
(there is a reason I've tanked no heroics on my paladin - although I'm
plenty geared, heck, *over*geared for the originals, I am not geared
enough to hold aggro!).
--
EU-Draenor:
Sagart (80 Undead Priest)
Balgair (80 Human Rogue)
Tairbh (80 Tauren Druid)
Buinne (80 Troll Shaman)
Ruire (80 Blood Elf Paladin)
Eilnich (75 Blood Elf Warlock)

Lewis

11/30/2010 11:43:00 AM

0

In message <id2h9n$h9e$1@news.eternal-september.org>
nuts <nuspammed@re.net> wrote:
> 2. wrath content has been nerfed (or players have been powered-up)

Both of these.

--
Worlds of belief, she [Susan] thought. Just like oysters. A little piece
of shit gets in and then a pearl grows around it. --Hogfather

Urbin

11/30/2010 1:44:00 PM

0

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 10:19:42 +0000 (UTC), Rob Wynne wrote:
> nuts <nuspammed@re.net> wrote:
> > Cryptoengineer wrote:
> >> http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/795945-What-Wrath-players-need-to-know-to-not-su...!
> >>
> >> Interesting summary. Not much new, but its all in one place.
> >
> > I have been playing Wrath only for a couple of months but I wonder if it
> > was the same when it first came out.
> > I mean, the web guides I read were all "don't expect to just burn the
> > mobs, in wrath you will need to use CC, careful positioning, spell
> > interrupts, etc". So there's two options:
> >
> > 1. the web guides were wrong
> > 2. wrath content has been nerfed (or players have been powered-up)
>
> To a certain degree, both.
>
> When we first started raiding in Wrath, my guild's motto was "Will it
> blend?", and the answer was almost always yes. I considered it a cruel
> irony as a hunter that at level 80 we were finally given a ranged trap for
> CC, and then never given a single opportunity to use it. (While I don't
> play a hunter any more, I shudder to think how hunters in Cataclysm are
> going to fare with the need to do *actual* CC. Effective trapping was
> always one of those skills that set the hunter above the huntard, and even
> the best of players will likely have found their skills atrophied from
> non-use after two years of WOTLK.)

Indeed. I was so proud having perfected chain ice trapping mobs towards the
end of BC. I could reliably chain trap my boss at the Kara dinner event,
yay!

Enter WotLK and I was just being laughed at for even trying. The only thing
I have been using traps for lately is as a sure trigger for lock and load.

In one way, I am looking forward to CC being needed again, on the other hand
I fear what it will do to PUGs and people's having become unused to the
fact.

> Blizzard is always trying to find the balance between challenge and
> accessability. Since these are somewhat diametrically opposed concepts,
> one tends to be boosted at the expense of the other, and Blizzard has been
> quite clear over the last couple of years that they lean in the direction
> of accessabilty when it comes down to it. (And I personally think they've
> done a pretty stellar job of it, but I was never a hardcore player.)

I'm in full agreement on this. I have seen more of what WotLK has to offer
than I did in BC, despite not being a raider.

In BC I have never seen Black Temple, Sunwell Plateau, Zul Aman. I have once
been in Mount Hyjal and Serpentshire Cavern just before WotLK when our
raiders organised a fun run after the raids had been nerfed. I had two
attempts at The Eye which both failed to down the boss (was it Kaelthas?). I
have only been to three (!) heroic 5 man dungeons.

In WotLK I still haven seen everything, but still a lot more. I have cleared
Naxx fully once, I've seen about two thirds of Ulduar, I've done Malygos
once, done the one under Wyrmrest several times (its name escapes me), I've
been along on an ICC run as far as the gun boat fight, I've tagged along on
a couple of the ToC raid instance and I have run dozens of heroic 5 mans.

All in all, despite the smaller challenge, I have seen more and had more
fun, so I think they hit it pretty much on the spot.

Cheers
Urbin
--
Dun Morogh-EU (PvE) | Juran (65), Druid
Urbin (80), Hunter | Surana (70), Mage | Greeta (62), Rogue
Mymule (80), Warlock | Kordosch (75), Deathknight | Gera (26), Paladin
Sunh (80), Priest | Taalas (73), Shaman | Vargal ( 0), Warrior

deathsabyss

11/30/2010 1:47:00 PM

0

I think it was nuts <nuspammed@re.net> that wrote something like...

>Cryptoengineer wrote:
>> http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/795945-What-Wrath-players-need-to-know-to-not-su...!
>>
>> Interesting summary. Not much new, but its all in one place.
>
>I have been playing Wrath only for a couple of months but I wonder if it
>was the same when it first came out.
>I mean, the web guides I read were all "don't expect to just burn the
>mobs, in wrath you will need to use CC, careful positioning, spell
>interrupts, etc". So there's two options:
>
>1. the web guides were wrong
>2. wrath content has been nerfed (or players have been powered-up)

No, pretty much all through TBC, you used CC but towards the end at a
similar time relative to ICC's release during WotLK I'd guess, when
the high level gear was becoming available for badges, less and less
CC started getting used and more people geared up via badges and
raids, at least in the 5 man instances other than Magisters Terrace
(The HoR of TBC) And the lessening importance of CC carried on into
WotLK.

Now it sounds like Blizzard is trying to reverse this trend. I
suspect they're going to have to be fairly heavy handed about it to
make it happen and it sounds like they have. But I imagine people
will still be trying to AoE if they can. I'd certainly be up for
trying to AoE trash pulls as the tank or healer to see if we could
manage it. I got no problems with wiping. : )

Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!

evanmac69

11/30/2010 1:51:00 PM

0

Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> done the one under Wyrmrest several times (its name escapes me)

obsidian sanctum, a raid I ever loved :D

--
Here's to you Nicola and Bart
Rest forever here in our hearts
The last and final moment is yours
That agony is your triumph!

cryptoguy

11/30/2010 1:54:00 PM

0

Catriona R <catrionarNOSPAM@totalise.co.uk> wrote in
news:8lk251F9pjU1@mid.individual.net:

>
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 10:19:42 +0000 (UTC), Rob Wynne <doc@america.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Wrath content has in some cases been nerfed, but in large part, we're
>>just all highly overgared. With badges being so easy to come by and
>>the LFD system making it trivial to find a dungeon group, there's
>>really nothing to prevent a new 80 from gearing up to ICC levels
>>quickly. All those heroic dungeons were tuned for people wearing
>>level 187 blues, and 251 epics pretty well rip right through stuff.
>>There are few fights in heroics which have complex enough mechanics to
>>be challenging to the overgeared player; a lot of the fights which
>>were complex can now just be weathered if you don't feel like doing
>>the dance steps, and dps is high enough to burn the bosses quickly
>>enough that there's no real problem. (I was chain running heroics
>>this weekend for Bildgewater rep, and got in one great group where we
>>were joking about DBM popping new killspeed records on most of the
>>bosses. Some of them were going down in less than 15-20 seconds.
>
> I ran Drak'Tharon a couple of days ago, first time in a while, I'd
> previously never considered getting the Consumption Junction
> achievement (kill Trollgore before reaching X stacks of Consume or
> somesuch) in a pug, since from all I'd heard it requires coordination
> and line of sighting and stuff to do it. Well... health burned down at
> one heck of a rate and boom, achievement. That was hard... :-P Current
> gear levels make all the old heroics tricial, heck, I barely had
> anything to do that run, except the odd flash heal on the DK dps who
> kept pulling aggro! The tank needed nothing beyond the odd renew here
> and there, most the time I was desperately trying to cast even one
> single damage spell before the mob died ;-) TotC and the ICC 5-mans
> still take rather more healing, but the originals are a walk in the
> park now, so long as you don't get a chronically undergeared tank
> (there is a reason I've tanked no heroics on my paladin - although I'm
> plenty geared, heck, *over*geared for the originals, I am not geared
> enough to hold aggro!).

Last night I ran heroic Gundrak with a brand new lvl 80 warrior tank (5
hours since ding). His addon Gearscore was 868 - I think the lowest I've
ever seen in a Heroic. He did just fine, no deaths, no wipes, though he did
need significantly more healing than a geared up tank.

And that's the way it should be. When WotLK came out, the then-current 70s
basically facerolled their way through the first few levels on the way to
80. Blizzard has to tune those levels not for that first wave, but for the
players who come after that.

Those of us who had spent months or years at 70 were effectively PvE
twinks; it takes a long time to acculmulate all that BiS gear, and learn to
use it properly.

The same thing is going to happen in Cata. That baby tank wont spend months
getting ilvl 264 gear before hitting level 81 content - he'll be there as
soon as he is able. Blizzard needs to let players like that have a chance
to progress.

Those of us who have spent 2 years gearing up at 80 will find the first few
levels a lot easier than those who follow.

pt

Rob Wynne

11/30/2010 2:23:00 PM

0

Urbin <urbin@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> In BC I have never seen Black Temple, Sunwell Plateau, Zul Aman. I have once
> been in Mount Hyjal and Serpentshire Cavern just before WotLK when our
> raiders organised a fun run after the raids had been nerfed. I had two
> attempts at The Eye which both failed to down the boss (was it Kaelthas?). I
> have only been to three (!) heroic 5 man dungeons.
>

Kael'Thas was the rock that more than one progression guild crashed and
foundered upon. My raiding guild in TBC broke its back on that fight, and
we never did get him down; we didn't really recover until WotLK came out
and we recruited new people to fill out the roster where people had burned
out and left.

I never saw him die until I joined a retrorun at level 80. I still think
it's one of the hardest encounters in the game at level.

--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / doc@america.net
http://www.autograph... / http://autographedcat.livejo...
Gafilk 2011: Jan 7-9, 2011 - Atlanta, GA - http://www.g...
Aphelion - Original SF&F since 1997 - http://www.aphelion-we...

neithskye

11/30/2010 2:45:00 PM

0

On Nov 29, 6:53 pm, Cryptoengineer <petert...@gmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/795945-What-Wrath-playe......

Few weeks ago I was in Ruby Sanctum on my Resto Druid. Despite all our
best heals, we'd lose a tank during every trash pull. "Guys, I can
Hibernate, you know. Guys, Hibernate can CC one of these mobs".
*crickets* "Guys, I have Hi--oh, forget it." By all means, let's keep
killing our tanks.

I have three 80s, all healers. I'm not sure I'm crazy about how
healing was nerfed. My Resto Druid levelled exclusively through LFG,
and I still have nightmares over the things I saw - DPS always pulling
aggro, no one would *ever* let me drink - one tank said, "If you want
to drink, go to a bar", as he charged into the next pack of mobs with
me at 20% mana, tanks up and running up stairs and around corners when
I dared to sit and take a few sips of a drink, so that I couldn't see
which way they went, and they died.

I can see all these behaviours continuing in Cata, with healers
getting blamed for everything. I can see healers in Cata being in LFG
what tanks were in Wrath. If mana is going to be as rough as they say,
and these behaviours continue (and I really don't think some people
will learn), I do believe I'll steer clear of LFG.

--
Jill