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rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

Call the great beast self contest (LSJ

Abdul alHazred

11/24/2010 9:06:00 AM

Hi,

Wondering if you are allowed to play call the great beast with an 11
cap baali if you already have a unique infernal vampire from a
previusly played call the great beast in play.
Since the action per se doesn' t result in a self contest, but rather
the fact that you put 11 counters on the card and the card isn´t
unique, but the vampire that is created from putting 11 counters on
it?

If the answer to the first question is "no" then...
As far as I´ve understood you can govern down on a vampire you already
have as a ready vampire and if you forget to move that blood to your
pool you get into a self-contest situation. Would it in a similar
manner be legal play to miscount the counters on a call the great
beast and think you have 9, but you actually have 10 and take the
action to put one counter on the card. Would you reverse this or is
this theoretically possible without a reversal?

This second question is obviously not something that is very likely to
ever happen, but keen on seeing what the answer will be.

Call the Great Beast
Type: Action
Blood Cost: 1
Required Clan: Baali

+1 stealth action.
Put this card on the acting Baali and put X ritual counters on it,
where X is the capacity of this Baali. This Baali may put a ritual
counter on this card as a +1 stealth action. When this card has more
than 10 ritual counters, burn this Baali and choose three Disciplines.
This card becomes a unique clanless independent infernal vampire with
9 capacity, 4 strength and 3 bleed. The Great Beast has the chosen
three Disciplines at superior. Move 9 blood to him from the blood
bank. The Great Beast can enter combat with any ready minion
controlled by another Methuselah as a (D) action and can prevent 1
damage each combat.

thanks

Tomas
16 Answers

BeAst

11/24/2010 9:24:00 AM

0

On Nov 24, 9:06 am, Abdul alHazred <hallonkul...@yahoo.se> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Wondering if you are allowed to play call the great beast with an 11
> cap baali if you already have a unique infernal vampire from a
> previusly played  call the great beast in play.
> Since the action per se doesn' t result in a self contest, but rather
> the fact that you put 11 counters on the card and the card isn´t
> unique, but the vampire that is created from putting 11 counters on
> it?
>
> If the answer to the first question is "no" then...
> As far as I´ve understood you can govern down on a vampire you already
> have as a ready vampire and if you forget to move that blood to your
> pool you get into a self-contest situation. Would it in a similar
> manner be legal play to miscount the counters on a call the great
> beast and think you have 9, but you actually have 10 and take the
> action to put one counter on the card. Would you reverse this or is
> this theoretically possible without a reversal?
>
> This second question is obviously not something that is very likely to
> ever happen, but keen on seeing what the answer will be.
>
> Call the Great Beast
> Type: Action
> Blood Cost: 1
> Required Clan: Baali
>
> +1 stealth action.
> Put this card on the acting Baali and put X ritual counters on it,
> where X is the capacity of this Baali. This Baali may put a ritual
> counter on this card as a +1 stealth action. When this card has more
> than 10 ritual counters, burn this Baali and choose three Disciplines.
> This card becomes a unique clanless independent infernal vampire with
> 9 capacity, 4 strength and 3 bleed. The Great Beast has the chosen
> three Disciplines at superior. Move 9 blood to him from the blood
> bank. The Great Beast can enter combat with any ready minion
> controlled by another Methuselah as a (D) action and can prevent 1
> damage each combat.
>
> thanks
>
> Tomas

IANLSJ, but AFAIK -

TGB is unique.
You can't self contest.
The action to Call TGB is fine - it doesn't become a vamp until the
last counter is placed, regardless of whether TGB is already in play.
You *can* put 11 counters on it if you have a GB in play should you so
desire, but the incoming GB would burn (see above)
Should you miscount and add the 11th counter on, then the card text
activates, you burn your acting baali, TGB is summoned and burns since
you can't self contest. If your playgroup is happy enough to accept it
was a misplay, then cool. If not, sucks to be you.

NB: - You can only govern down to a vamp you already have in play if
you've increased the ready one's capacity. Govern at superior
stipulates a younger vampire. I'm sure eveyone know that, just stating
the obvious for the sake of clarity.

Vincent

11/24/2010 12:04:00 PM

0

On 24 nov, 10:23, BeAst <john.b...@zeninternet.co.uk> wrote:
> On Nov 24, 9:06 am, Abdul alHazred <hallonkul...@yahoo.se> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi,
>
> > Wondering if you are allowed to play call the great beast with an 11
> > cap baali if you already have a unique infernal vampire from a
> > previusly played  call the great beast in play.
> > Since the action per se doesn' t result in a self contest, but rather
> > the fact that you put 11 counters on the card and the card isn´t
> > unique, but the vampire that is created from putting 11 counters on
> > it?
>
> > If the answer to the first question is "no" then...
> > As far as I´ve understood you can govern down on a vampire you already
> > have as a ready vampire and if you forget to move that blood to your
> > pool you get into a self-contest situation. Would it in a similar
> > manner be legal play to miscount the counters on a call the great
> > beast and think you have 9, but you actually have 10 and take the
> > action to put one counter on the card. Would you reverse this or is
> > this theoretically possible without a reversal?
>
> > This second question is obviously not something that is very likely to
> > ever happen, but keen on seeing what the answer will be.
>
> > Call the Great Beast
> > Type: Action
> > Blood Cost: 1
> > Required Clan: Baali
>
> > +1 stealth action.
> > Put this card on the acting Baali and put X ritual counters on it,
> > where X is the capacity of this Baali. This Baali may put a ritual
> > counter on this card as a +1 stealth action. When this card has more
> > than 10 ritual counters, burn this Baali and choose three Disciplines.
> > This card becomes a unique clanless independent infernal vampire with
> > 9 capacity, 4 strength and 3 bleed. The Great Beast has the chosen
> > three Disciplines at superior. Move 9 blood to him from the blood
> > bank. The Great Beast can enter combat with any ready minion
> > controlled by another Methuselah as a (D) action and can prevent 1
> > damage each combat.
>
> > thanks
>
> > Tomas
>
> IANLSJ, but AFAIK -
>
> TGB is unique.
> You can't self contest.

That's why you can't :
- play CtGB with an 11+ cap vampire
- add the 11th counter
if there is already a CtGB vampire under your control.

You can still play a copy of CtGB with a 10- cap vampire or add up to
the 10th counter.

Jesper Bøje

11/24/2010 12:19:00 PM

0

On 24 Nov., 13:04, Vincent <v.rip...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 24 nov, 10:23, BeAst <john.b...@zeninternet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 24, 9:06 am, Abdul alHazred <hallonkul...@yahoo.se> wrote:
>
> > > Hi,
>
> > > Wondering if you are allowed to play call the great beast with an 11
> > > cap baali if you already have a unique infernal vampire from a
> > > previusly played  call the great beast in play.
> > > Since the action per se doesn' t result in a self contest, but rather
> > > the fact that you put 11 counters on the card and the card isn´t
> > > unique, but the vampire that is created from putting 11 counters on
> > > it?
>
> > > If the answer to the first question is "no" then...
> > > As far as I´ve understood you can govern down on a vampire you already
> > > have as a ready vampire and if you forget to move that blood to your
> > > pool you get into a self-contest situation. Would it in a similar
> > > manner be legal play to miscount the counters on a call the great
> > > beast and think you have 9, but you actually have 10 and take the
> > > action to put one counter on the card. Would you reverse this or is
> > > this theoretically possible without a reversal?
>
> > > This second question is obviously not something that is very likely to
> > > ever happen, but keen on seeing what the answer will be.
>
> > > Call the Great Beast
> > > Type: Action
> > > Blood Cost: 1
> > > Required Clan: Baali
>
> > > +1 stealth action.
> > > Put this card on the acting Baali and put X ritual counters on it,
> > > where X is the capacity of this Baali. This Baali may put a ritual
> > > counter on this card as a +1 stealth action. When this card has more
> > > than 10 ritual counters, burn this Baali and choose three Disciplines.
> > > This card becomes a unique clanless independent infernal vampire with
> > > 9 capacity, 4 strength and 3 bleed. The Great Beast has the chosen
> > > three Disciplines at superior. Move 9 blood to him from the blood
> > > bank. The Great Beast can enter combat with any ready minion
> > > controlled by another Methuselah as a (D) action and can prevent 1
> > > damage each combat.
>
> > > thanks
>
> > > Tomas
>
> > IANLSJ, but AFAIK -
>
> > TGB is unique.
> > You can't self contest.
>
> That's why you can't :
>  - play CtGB with an 11+ cap vampire
>  - add the 11th counter
> if there is already a CtGB vampire under your control.
>
> You can still play a copy of CtGB with a 10- cap vampire or add up to
> the 10th counter.- Skjul tekst i anførselstegn -
>
> - Vis tekst i anførselstegn -

I dont agree on this. The Call The Great Beast action is not unique.
So there is nothing wrong with me playing the action, when it enters
play, you then put counters on it, and then, when the counters are
added if you have 11 or more it triggers. There is nothing on Call
the Great Beast that makes me check what capacity the vampire who
plays it before it enters play.

floppyzedolfin

11/24/2010 12:27:00 PM

0

On Nov 24, 1:19 pm, Jesper Bøje <j...@jyhad.dk> wrote:
> On 24 Nov., 13:04, Vincent <v.rip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 24 nov, 10:23, BeAst <john.b...@zeninternet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 24, 9:06 am, Abdul alHazred <hallonkul...@yahoo.se> wrote:
>
> > > > Hi,
>
> > > > Wondering if you are allowed to play call the great beast with an 11
> > > > cap baali if you already have a unique infernal vampire from a
> > > > previusly played  call the great beast in play.
> > > > Since the action per se doesn' t result in a self contest, but rather
> > > > the fact that you put 11 counters on the card and the card isn´t
> > > > unique, but the vampire that is created from putting 11 counters on
> > > > it?
>
> > > > If the answer to the first question is "no" then...
> > > > As far as I´ve understood you can govern down on a vampire you already
> > > > have as a ready vampire and if you forget to move that blood to your
> > > > pool you get into a self-contest situation. Would it in a similar
> > > > manner be legal play to miscount the counters on a call the great
> > > > beast and think you have 9, but you actually have 10 and take the
> > > > action to put one counter on the card. Would you reverse this or is
> > > > this theoretically possible without a reversal?
>
> > > > This second question is obviously not something that is very likely to
> > > > ever happen, but keen on seeing what the answer will be.
>
> > > > Call the Great Beast
> > > > Type: Action
> > > > Blood Cost: 1
> > > > Required Clan: Baali
>
> > > > +1 stealth action.
> > > > Put this card on the acting Baali and put X ritual counters on it,
> > > > where X is the capacity of this Baali. This Baali may put a ritual
> > > > counter on this card as a +1 stealth action. When this card has more
> > > > than 10 ritual counters, burn this Baali and choose three Disciplines.
> > > > This card becomes a unique clanless independent infernal vampire with
> > > > 9 capacity, 4 strength and 3 bleed. The Great Beast has the chosen
> > > > three Disciplines at superior. Move 9 blood to him from the blood
> > > > bank. The Great Beast can enter combat with any ready minion
> > > > controlled by another Methuselah as a (D) action and can prevent 1
> > > > damage each combat.
>
> > > > thanks
>
> > > > Tomas
>
> > > IANLSJ, but AFAIK -
>
> > > TGB is unique.
> > > You can't self contest.
>
> > That's why you can't :
> >  - play CtGB with an 11+ cap vampire
> >  - add the 11th counter
> > if there is already a CtGB vampire under your control.
>
> > You can still play a copy of CtGB with a 10- cap vampire or add up to
> > the 10th counter.- Skjul tekst i anførselstegn -
>
> > - Vis tekst i anførselstegn -
>
> I dont agree on this. The Call The Great Beast action is not unique.
> So there is nothing wrong with me playing the action, when it enters
> play, you then put counters on it, and then, when the counters are
> added if you have 11 or more it triggers.  There is nothing on Call
> the Great Beast that makes me check what capacity the vampire who
> plays it before it enters play.

I don't know if this still stands, but here's what I found:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/c7dea0...

BeAst

11/24/2010 12:29:00 PM

0

On Nov 24, 12:04 pm, Vincent <v.rip...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 24 nov, 10:23, BeAst <john.b...@zeninternet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 24, 9:06 am, Abdul alHazred <hallonkul...@yahoo.se> wrote:
>
> > > Hi,
>
> > > Wondering if you are allowed to play call the great beast with an 11
> > > cap baali if you already have a unique infernal vampire from a
> > > previusly played  call the great beast in play.
> > > Since the action per se doesn' t result in a self contest, but rather
> > > the fact that you put 11 counters on the card and the card isn´t
> > > unique, but the vampire that is created from putting 11 counters on
> > > it?
>
> > > If the answer to the first question is "no" then...
> > > As far as I´ve understood you can govern down on a vampire you already
> > > have as a ready vampire and if you forget to move that blood to your
> > > pool you get into a self-contest situation. Would it in a similar
> > > manner be legal play to miscount the counters on a call the great
> > > beast and think you have 9, but you actually have 10 and take the
> > > action to put one counter on the card. Would you reverse this or is
> > > this theoretically possible without a reversal?
>
> > > This second question is obviously not something that is very likely to
> > > ever happen, but keen on seeing what the answer will be.
>
> > > Call the Great Beast
> > > Type: Action
> > > Blood Cost: 1
> > > Required Clan: Baali
>
> > > +1 stealth action.
> > > Put this card on the acting Baali and put X ritual counters on it,
> > > where X is the capacity of this Baali. This Baali may put a ritual
> > > counter on this card as a +1 stealth action. When this card has more
> > > than 10 ritual counters, burn this Baali and choose three Disciplines.
> > > This card becomes a unique clanless independent infernal vampire with
> > > 9 capacity, 4 strength and 3 bleed. The Great Beast has the chosen
> > > three Disciplines at superior. Move 9 blood to him from the blood
> > > bank. The Great Beast can enter combat with any ready minion
> > > controlled by another Methuselah as a (D) action and can prevent 1
> > > damage each combat.
>
> > > thanks
>
> > > Tomas
>
> > IANLSJ, but AFAIK -
>
> > TGB is unique.
> > You can't self contest.
>
> That's why you can't :
>  - play CtGB with an 11+ cap vampire
>  - add the 11th counter
> if there is already a CtGB vampire under your control.
>
> You can still play a copy of CtGB with a 10- cap vampire or add up to
> the 10th counter.

I disagree. Then again, I'm usually wrong.
You *can* put a card into play which you already have, it just burns
as per 4.1

"Be careful about putting duplicates of the same unique cards in your
deck. You can't control more than one of the same unique card at a
time, and you cannot contest cards with yourself (if some effect would
force you to contest a card with yourself, then you simply burn the
incoming copy of the unique card). On the other hand, you may wish to
have a second copy handy in case the first is burned."

The addition of an 11th counter to CTGB is a valid action, with a
valid target, but the enaction of CTGB's text forces you to contest a
card you already control, so the incoming copy burns.

I think.

Brum

11/24/2010 2:55:00 PM

0

On Nov 24, 12:29 pm, BeAst <john.b...@zeninternet.co.uk> wrote:
> On Nov 24, 12:04 pm, Vincent <v.rip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 24 nov, 10:23, BeAst <john.b...@zeninternet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 24, 9:06 am, Abdul alHazred <hallonkul...@yahoo.se> wrote:
>
> > > > Hi,
>
> > > > Wondering if you are allowed to play call the great beast with an 11
> > > > cap baali if you already have a unique infernal vampire from a
> > > > previusly played  call the great beast in play.
> > > > Since the action per se doesn' t result in a self contest, but rather
> > > > the fact that you put 11 counters on the card and the card isn´t
> > > > unique, but the vampire that is created from putting 11 counters on
> > > > it?
>
> > > > If the answer to the first question is "no" then...
> > > > As far as I´ve understood you can govern down on a vampire you already
> > > > have as a ready vampire and if you forget to move that blood to your
> > > > pool you get into a self-contest situation. Would it in a similar
> > > > manner be legal play to miscount the counters on a call the great
> > > > beast and think you have 9, but you actually have 10 and take the
> > > > action to put one counter on the card. Would you reverse this or is
> > > > this theoretically possible without a reversal?
>
> > > > This second question is obviously not something that is very likely to
> > > > ever happen, but keen on seeing what the answer will be.
>
> > > > Call the Great Beast
> > > > Type: Action
> > > > Blood Cost: 1
> > > > Required Clan: Baali
>
> > > > +1 stealth action.
> > > > Put this card on the acting Baali and put X ritual counters on it,
> > > > where X is the capacity of this Baali. This Baali may put a ritual
> > > > counter on this card as a +1 stealth action. When this card has more
> > > > than 10 ritual counters, burn this Baali and choose three Disciplines.
> > > > This card becomes a unique clanless independent infernal vampire with
> > > > 9 capacity, 4 strength and 3 bleed. The Great Beast has the chosen
> > > > three Disciplines at superior. Move 9 blood to him from the blood
> > > > bank. The Great Beast can enter combat with any ready minion
> > > > controlled by another Methuselah as a (D) action and can prevent 1
> > > > damage each combat.
>
> > > > thanks
>
> > > > Tomas
>
> > > IANLSJ, but AFAIK -
>
> > > TGB is unique.
> > > You can't self contest.
>
> > That's why you can't :
> >  - play CtGB with an 11+ cap vampire
> >  - add the 11th counter
> > if there is already a CtGB vampire under your control.
>
> > You can still play a copy of CtGB with a 10- cap vampire or add up to
> > the 10th counter.
>
> I disagree. Then again, I'm usually wrong.
> You *can* put a card into play which you already have, it just burns
> as per 4.1
>
> "Be careful about putting duplicates of the same unique cards in your
> deck. You can't control more than one of the same unique card at a
> time, and you cannot contest cards with yourself (if some effect would
> force you to contest a card with yourself, then you simply burn the
> incoming copy of the unique card). On the other hand, you may wish to
> have a second copy handy in case the first is burned."
>
> The addition of an 11th counter to CTGB is a valid action, with a
> valid target, but the enaction of CTGB's text forces you to contest a
> card you already control, so the incoming copy burns.
>
> I think.

IANLSJ, but:
You can't attempt actions that are known to be illegal from the start
(Dimple playing Parity Shift), or result in an illegal effect that is
known from the start, if the action resolves unblocked.
Example - One of your vampires has Ivory Bow. None of you minions can
try to equip with another copy of Ivory Bow.

You can control a Great Beast and a Call the Great Beast just fine, if
the later has 10 counters or less.
What you cannot do (while you control the Great Beast) is put the 11th
counter on Call the Great Beast.

Both these examples put into play a Unique minion and are illegal if
you already have a Great Beast:
Playing Call the Great Beast with an 11 cap vampire
or
Putting the 11th counter on a controlled Call the Great Beast

Normal no-contest rules apply, I think.

Cheers!
Tiago Brum

Vincent

11/24/2010 3:25:00 PM

0

On 24 nov, 13:29, BeAst <john.b...@zeninternet.co.uk> wrote:
> On Nov 24, 12:04 pm, Vincent <v.rip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 24 nov, 10:23, BeAst <john.b...@zeninternet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 24, 9:06 am, Abdul alHazred <hallonkul...@yahoo.se> wrote:
>
> > > > Hi,
>
> > > > Wondering if you are allowed to play call the great beast with an 11
> > > > cap baali if you already have a unique infernal vampire from a
> > > > previusly played  call the great beast in play.
> > > > Since the action per se doesn' t result in a self contest, but rather
> > > > the fact that you put 11 counters on the card and the card isn´t
> > > > unique, but the vampire that is created from putting 11 counters on
> > > > it?
>
> > > > If the answer to the first question is "no" then...
> > > > As far as I´ve understood you can govern down on a vampire you already
> > > > have as a ready vampire and if you forget to move that blood to your
> > > > pool you get into a self-contest situation. Would it in a similar
> > > > manner be legal play to miscount the counters on a call the great
> > > > beast and think you have 9, but you actually have 10 and take the
> > > > action to put one counter on the card. Would you reverse this or is
> > > > this theoretically possible without a reversal?
>
> > > > This second question is obviously not something that is very likely to
> > > > ever happen, but keen on seeing what the answer will be.
>
> > > > Call the Great Beast
> > > > Type: Action
> > > > Blood Cost: 1
> > > > Required Clan: Baali
>
> > > > +1 stealth action.
> > > > Put this card on the acting Baali and put X ritual counters on it,
> > > > where X is the capacity of this Baali. This Baali may put a ritual
> > > > counter on this card as a +1 stealth action. When this card has more
> > > > than 10 ritual counters, burn this Baali and choose three Disciplines.
> > > > This card becomes a unique clanless independent infernal vampire with
> > > > 9 capacity, 4 strength and 3 bleed. The Great Beast has the chosen
> > > > three Disciplines at superior. Move 9 blood to him from the blood
> > > > bank. The Great Beast can enter combat with any ready minion
> > > > controlled by another Methuselah as a (D) action and can prevent 1
> > > > damage each combat.
>
> > > > thanks
>
> > > > Tomas
>
> > > IANLSJ, but AFAIK -
>
> > > TGB is unique.
> > > You can't self contest.
>
> > That's why you can't :
> >  - play CtGB with an 11+ cap vampire
> >  - add the 11th counter
> > if there is already a CtGB vampire under your control.
>
> > You can still play a copy of CtGB with a 10- cap vampire or add up to
> > the 10th counter.
>
> I disagree. Then again, I'm usually wrong.
> You *can* put a card into play which you already have, it just burns
> as per 4.1
>
> "Be careful about putting duplicates of the same unique cards in your
> deck. You can't control more than one of the same unique card at a
> time, and you cannot contest cards with yourself (if some effect would
> force you to contest a card with yourself, then you simply burn the
> incoming copy of the unique card). On the other hand, you may wish to
> have a second copy handy in case the first is burned."
>
> The addition of an 11th counter to CTGB is a valid action, with a
> valid target, but the enaction of CTGB's text forces you to contest a
> card you already control, so the incoming copy burns.
>
> I think.
You misread that part. You can "put duplicates of the same unique
cards *in your deck*"
But "you cannot contest cards with yourself".

Adding the 11th counter to the CtGB results directly into putting a
unique vampire into play, which you can't do if you already control
that unique vampire (ou can't self contest)

The parallel with influencing on an already controlled vampire is not
correct, because influencing pool on a vampire doesn't put it directly
in play.
Rather, at the end of your influence phase, the game mecanism puts
vampires with pool=capacity into play.

BeAst

11/24/2010 3:26:00 PM

0

> IANLSJ, but:
> You can't attempt actions that are known to be illegal from the start
> (Dimple playing Parity Shift), or result in an illegal effect that is
> known from the start, if the action resolves unblocked.
> Example - One of your vampires has Ivory Bow. None of you minions can
> try to equip with another copy of Ivory Bow.
>
> You can control a Great Beast and a Call the Great Beast just fine, if
> the later has 10 counters or less.
> What you cannot do (while you control the Great Beast) is put the 11th
> counter on Call the Great Beast.
>
> Both these examples put into play a Unique minion and are illegal if
> you already have a Great Beast:
> Playing Call the Great Beast with an 11 cap vampire
> or
> Putting the 11th counter on a controlled Call the Great Beast
>
> Normal no-contest rules apply, I think.
>
> Cheers!
> Tiago Brum

I'm not saying no-contest doesn't apply, I'm saying it categorically
does.
There's a difference between playing a card that you can't meet the
requirements for (and is just plain illegal) such as Dimple playing
Parity Shift, and taking an action that results in you being forced to
self contest, I believe. I can't see why anyone would want to attempt
to self contest, but it could happen for whatever reason.

If, for example you can't pull enough pool off a vamp you've governed
down to (and already have in play) but you need the two pool you're
about to pull back to survive (in your opinion) would that be by the
same reasoning illegal?

E.g. You have Dirk in your ready region, and in your uncontrolled
region. Hardestaadt has Governed down to the uncontrolled copy of
Dirk, transferring 2 pool back in the influence phase still sees Dirk
attempt to self contest, and the incoming copy burning - but more than
that it would mean the original Govern down was "illegal" since you'd
know that you were intentionally taking an action that would make you
self contest (which is essentially what we're talking about with
adding the final counter to CTGB).

That's my reasoning, anyway.

Ta
B

Meej

11/24/2010 3:29:00 PM

0

On Nov 24, 10:26 am, BeAst <john.b...@zeninternet.co.uk> wrote:

> If, for example you can't pull enough pool off a vamp you've governed
> down to (and already have in play) but you need the two pool you're
> about to pull back to survive (in your opinion) would that be by the
> same reasoning illegal?

No; the Govern isn't directly putting a card into play. (Putting the
11th counter on a CTGB *does* put a vampire into play.)

- D.J.

BeAst

11/24/2010 3:36:00 PM

0


>
> You misread that part. You can "put duplicates of the same unique
> cards *in your deck*"
> But "you cannot contest cards with yourself".
>
> Adding the 11th counter to the CtGB results directly into putting a
> unique vampire into play, which you can't do if you already control
> that unique vampire (ou can't self contest)
>
> The parallel with influencing on an already controlled vampire is not
> correct, because influencing pool on a vampire doesn't put it directly
> in play.
> Rather, at the end of your influence phase, the game mecanism puts
> vampires with pool=capacity into play.

Ah but you're missing the "if some effect would
force you to contest a card with yourself, then you simply burn the
incoming copy of the unique card" part, which is the relevant bit (I
think).

You can meet all the requirements of placing the final counter, so its
still a valid action (this is where the crux is - and I always get
these wrong, its a rubbish superpower). When the text is enacted, you
are forced to self contest, so the incoming copy (and acting baali are
burned).

I suppose it's whether placing the final counter is still valid, see
my parallel with Dirk.

I can see the argument that placing the final counter is illegal
because it results in an attempt a self contest, but I'm not saying
self contesting is legal (or even a good idea) I'm saying that if CTGB
forces you to, because you've enacted its text, all that happens is
you get a red face and two crispy infernal vamps.