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How V:TES compares to other White Wolf games....

The Lasombra

11/21/2010 5:59:00 PM

This isn't sales data, but it is data White Wolf has....


How V:TES compares to other White Wolf games
http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?y=2010&m=11&img=19-053539L&t=jpg&rand=8192&am...
14 Answers

Peter D Bakija

11/21/2010 6:13:00 PM

0

On Nov 21, 12:59 pm, The Lasombra <TheLasom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> This isn't sales data, but it is data White Wolf has....
>
> How V:TES compares to other White Wolf gameshttp://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?y=2010&m=11&img=19-053539......

I don't find this all surprising. VTES is a game that predates the WW
forum by a considerable amount. So we have the newsgroup group (that
is surprisingly active, still) that still averages 1000+ posts a
month; countless non WW BBS forums and blogs and whatever; BGG; and
then the WW forum that is difficult to register for and not
significantly more effective than any of the other various discussion
forums.

I mean, yeah, if at some point someone was like "Hey! If you don't all
move all the VTES discussion to the WW forum, they'll cancel the game!
And if you do, they won't!", then I'm sure we could have done that.
But as it seems unlikely that this would have happened (or worked),
what are you gonna do?

They also had (what is likely more important) sales data, and all
indications are that the sales were consistently solid.

-Peter

XZealot

11/21/2010 6:58:00 PM

0


> I don't find this all surprising. VTES is a game that predates the WW
> forum by a considerable amount. So we have the newsgroup group (that
> is surprisingly active, still) that still averages 1000+ posts a
> month; countless non WW BBS forums and blogs and whatever; BGG; and
> then the WW forum that is difficult to register for and not
> significantly more effective than any of the other various discussion
> forums.

....that and you couldn't even get into a decent flamewar without some
PC moderater removing your posts

The Lasombra

11/21/2010 7:07:00 PM

0

On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 10:13:17 -0800 (PST), Peter D Bakija wrote:

>So we have the newsgroup group (that
>is surprisingly active, still) that still averages 1000+ posts a
>month; countless non WW BBS forums and blogs and whatever; BGG; and
>then the WW forum that is difficult to register for and not
>significantly more effective than any of the other various discussion
>forums.

It seems that you're saying that for any new forum to truly be
embraced by the V:TES community it must incorporate the newsgroup as
one of its 'sections'.

Something like this:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/feed/rss_v2_0_...

To hold all of the random discussions that aren't already encompassed
by their other sections of the site.

I wonder if anyone has ever accomplished that aside from VTESinLA.org.
http://vtesinla.org/...

Peter D Bakija

11/21/2010 9:06:00 PM

0

On Nov 21, 1:57 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
> ...that and you couldn't even get into a decent flamewar without some
> PC moderater removing your posts

Yeah--that too. I hate hate hate hate hate moderated discussion
forums. I hate them. Not 'cause I love flame wars and idiots. But I
hate moderators deciding what discussions are and are not ok, and
randomly shutting down discussions and whatever. I hate that crap. A
lot.

-Peter

Peter D Bakija

11/21/2010 9:12:00 PM

0

On Nov 21, 2:07 pm, The Lasombra <TheLasom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> It seems that you're saying that for any new forum to truly be
> embraced by the V:TES community it must incorporate the newsgroup as
> one of its 'sections'.

Well, not necessarily. I'm saying that there was already a very well
established VTES discussion forum (i.e. here) that existed by the time
WW put up a forum. And getting folks to migrate from an unmoderated
usenet group to a moderated web forum wasn't likely to happen as much
as anyone hoped.

If at this point everyone decided to up and go to one place, I'm sure
it could be organized and if everyone decided to play along, it would
work fine. But what place to go to? There are multiple forums, all of
them have something to recommend them, and all of them have reasons to
dislike them. It would have been handy for everyone to have embraced
the WW forum at some point, but that never really happened (it is
klunky, difficult to register for, and incredibly garish--I have no
qualms at all about looking at google.groups at work. I have no
interest at all in looking at the WW forum at work, for example,
'cause it is green and black and flashing with giant pictures of
scantily clad vampires and whatever).

-Peter

The Lasombra

11/21/2010 9:46:00 PM

0

On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 13:12:04 -0800 (PST), Peter D Bakija wrote:

>On Nov 21, 2:07 pm, The Lasombra wrote:
>> It seems that you're saying that for any new forum to truly be
>> embraced by the V:TES community it must incorporate the newsgroup as
>> one of its 'sections'.

>Well, not necessarily. I'm saying that there was already a very well
>established VTES discussion forum (i.e. here) that existed by the time
>WW put up a forum. And getting folks to migrate from an unmoderated
>usenet group to a moderated web forum wasn't likely to happen as much
>as anyone hoped.

I found a forum software that does this.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/fudfo...

Hopefully anyone implementing a new Forum for V:TES will review that
need to get this group onto their site. Or at least to get the
discussion from this forum onto their site.

>If at this point everyone decided to up and go to one place, I'm sure
>it could be organized and if everyone decided to play along, it would
>work fine. But what place to go to?

Somewhere new.
White Wolf will be flushing and restarting their forum again before
the end of the year.

>There are multiple forums, all of them have something to recommend
>them, and all of them have reasons to dislike them. It would have been
>handy for everyone to have embraced the WW forum at some point,
>but that never really happened (it is klunky, difficult to register for,
>and incredibly garish--I have no qualms at all about looking at
>google.groups at work. I have no interest at all in looking at the
>WW forum at work, for example, 'cause it is green and black
>and flashing with giant pictures of scantily clad vampires and whatever).

Agreed.
Pictures aren't necessary for good discussion, and ads aren't
necessary for the support of a V:TES forum. What is necessary is
participation. If all of the world-wide participation that is present
on this newsgroup was automatically imported into a forum that also
did other things that forum users liked, their site would have more
traffic and more good conversations.

FUDForum will even put the posts from the forum back on the newsgroup.

I don't have any interest in running/maintaining a forum myself, but
if there is anyone that is, FUDForum should defintely be considered.


Carpe noctem.

The Lasombra

http://www.TheLa...

Your best source of V:TES information.

James Coupe

11/21/2010 10:08:00 PM

0

Peter D Bakija <pdb6@lightlink.com> wrote:
>On Nov 21, 12:59 pm, The Lasombra <TheLasom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> This isn't sales data, but it is data White Wolf has....
>>
>> How V:TES compares to other White Wolf gameshttp://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?y=2010&m=11&img=19-053539......
>
>I don't find this all surprising. VTES is a game that predates the WW
>forum by a considerable amount. So we have the newsgroup group (that
>is surprisingly active, still) that still averages 1000+ posts a
>month; countless non WW BBS forums and blogs and whatever; BGG; and
>then the WW forum that is difficult to register for and not
>significantly more effective than any of the other various discussion
>forums.

More problematically, the extremely transient nature of discussions
there makes it very, very unhelpful for a game that needs consistent
rulings. The essence of most Storyteller-style games is quite
different, in that everyone is at liberty to do whatever works for their
group with their friends. V:TES is the exact opposite.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

Peter D Bakija

11/21/2010 10:09:00 PM

0

On Nov 21, 4:46 pm, The Lasombra <TheLasom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I found a forum software that does this.http://sourceforge.net/projects/fudfo...
>
> Hopefully anyone implementing a new Forum for V:TES will review that
> need to get this group onto their site.  Or at least to get the
> discussion from this forum onto their site.

I'm not convinced that this site in particular needs to be ported to
another site--I mean, I like it here and all, but if there were a new,
official, unmoderated, *here is where VTES discussion* site, and we
all decided en-masse to up and go there, and everyone just went with
it, I think it would be completely reasonable to let this place die.

But that would require a solid, easy to find, easy to use, non garish
and flashy site that we all agree to use. Which is going to be hard to
do.

I mean, like, if the new VEKN decided to put up a solid web forum
(that wasn't full of garish graphics and flashing ads and crap like
that) and we all made a concerted effort to up and go there, it would
probably work.

> Somewhere new.
> White Wolf will be flushing and restarting their forum again before
> the end of the year.

And yet another reason why the WW forum never really took off.

> Agreed.
> Pictures aren't necessary for good discussion, and ads aren't
> necessary for the support of a V:TES forum.  What is necessary is
> participation.  If all of the world-wide participation that is present
> on this newsgroup was automatically imported into a forum that also
> did other things that forum users liked, their site would have more
> traffic and more good conversations.

I think that is true. But I think if the site in question was
functionally similar to here, just up and going there would be
completely reasonable.

-Peter

Blooded Sand

11/21/2010 10:12:00 PM

0

On Nov 21, 10:05 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
> On Nov 21, 1:57 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > ...that and you couldn't even get into a decent flamewar without some
> > PC moderater removing your posts
>
> Yeah--that too. I hate hate hate hate hate moderated discussion
> forums. I hate them. Not 'cause I love flame wars and idiots. But I
> hate moderators deciding what discussions are and are not ok, and
> randomly shutting down discussions and whatever. I hate that crap. A
> lot.
>
> -Peter

hey, i am a mod on thepathofblood, and my main job is spambot banning.
flame wars are fun and entertaining, and i will allow them right until
the attacks get too ad hominen. Then a gentle, "enough now" Or "Chill
out" usually gets a bit of coolant into the works.

Peter D Bakija

11/21/2010 10:19:00 PM

0

On Nov 21, 5:12 pm, Blooded Sand <sandm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> hey, i am a mod on thepathofblood, and my main job is spambot banning.
> flame wars are fun and entertaining, and i will allow them right until
> the attacks get too ad hominen. Then a gentle, "enough now" Or "Chill
> out" usually gets a bit of coolant into the works.

Oh, sure. But I don't even like that kind of thing. I'm a big fan of
"we are all grown ups and can operate like grown ups without someone
telling us to stop". The vast majority of the time, that works fine.

I mean, yeah, SPAM patrol is important--I'm ironically a moderator on
an SFB BBS, the whole purpose of which is that the moderators don't
moderate. We patrol for SPAM (and were recently forced to enact a
registration system after an huge SPAM attack :-( and that's pretty
much it. Occasionally discussions get heated and go off the rails, but
no one has ever once been like "Hey! Stop this discussion!", and it
all works fine.

It is perfectly possible to have a discussion forum, even one with
moderators, that operates as if unmoderated. And it works just fine.

-Peter