Usa Forum - Question about Outside the Hourglass (LSJ

Henri K

6/28/2010 11:46:00 AM

I tried searching the other threads made about this card for an answer
but couldn't find one. This came up in our playgroup and caused some
"discussion".

If a vampire uses Dawn Operation and Outside the Hourglass to inflict
2 aggravated damage before range is chosen, can you play inferior Skin
of Night to treat it as normal damage or does it resolve immediately
without the possibility to play any cards except damage prevention?

Based on threads about Weather Control I'd assume you can but they
have a different wording so I'd like to know for sure.

11 Answers

Henri K

6/28/2010 11:48:00 AM

On 28 kesä, 14:46, Henri K <stealthw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I tried searching the other threads made about this card for an answer
> but couldn't find one. This came up in our playgroup and caused some
> "discussion".
>
> If a vampire uses Dawn Operation and Outside the Hourglass to inflict
> 2 aggravated damage before range is chosen, can you play inferior Skin
> of Night to treat it as normal damage or does it resolve immediately
> without the possibility to play any cards except damage prevention?
>
> Based on threads about Weather Control I'd assume you can but they
> have a different wording so I'd like to know for sure.

Sorry, forgot to put the card texts here.

Outside the Hourglass

[obf] Strike: dodge.
[tem] Maneuver, or strike: dodge, with an optional maneuver.
[TEM] Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the
opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at
superior each round.

Dawn Operation

[for] If this action is blocked, all damage inflicted to vampires in
the resulting combat is aggravated. Any vampire attempting to block
may now choose not to block.
[FOR] As above, but vampires attempting to block cannot back out.

Skin of Night

[for] This vampire treats aggravated damage as normal damage for the
remainder of this round.
[FOR] As above, and prevent 1 damage.

Vincent

6/28/2010 12:16:00 PM

On 28 juin, 13:48, Henri K <stealthw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 28 kesä, 14:46, Henri K <stealthw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I tried searching the other threads made about this card for an answer
> > but couldn't find one. This came up in our playgroup and caused some
> > "discussion".
>
> > If a vampire uses Dawn Operation and Outside the Hourglass to inflict
> > 2 aggravated damage before range is chosen, can you play inferior Skin
> > of Night to treat it as normal damage or does it resolve immediately
> > without the possibility to play any cards except damage prevention?
>
You can play Skin of Night when it applies by card text. Since you're
taking damage in combat, you can play combat cards that relate to how
damage is handled. So yes, otherwise you won't even be able to prevent
that damage.

See also Flesh of Marble preventing damage.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/22dcde972f6cfe97/f95c01...

Aleksi Nuora

6/28/2010 12:22:00 PM

On 28 kesä, 14:48, Henri K <stealthw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 28 kesä, 14:46, Henri K <stealthw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I tried searching the other threads made about this card for an answer
> > but couldn't find one. This came up in our playgroup and caused some
> > "discussion".
>
> > If a vampire uses Dawn Operation and Outside the Hourglass to inflict
> > 2 aggravated damage before range is chosen, can you play inferior Skin
> > of Night to treat it as normal damage or does it resolve immediately
> > without the possibility to play any cards except damage prevention?
>
> > Based on threads about Weather Control I'd assume you can but they
> > have a different wording so I'd like to know for sure.
>
> Sorry, forgot to put the card texts here.
>
> Outside the Hourglass
>
> [obf] Strike: dodge.
> [tem] Maneuver, or strike: dodge, with an optional maneuver.
> [TEM] Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the
> opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at
> superior each round.
>
> Dawn Operation
>
> [for] If this action is blocked, all damage inflicted to vampires in
> the resulting combat is aggravated. Any vampire attempting to block
> may now choose not to block.
> [FOR] As above, but vampires attempting to block cannot back out.
>
> Skin of Night
>
> [for] This vampire treats aggravated damage as normal damage for the
> remainder of this round.
> [FOR] As above, and prevent 1 damage.

Here's what I'm basing my opinion on:
http://groups.google.fi/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/db243bec617223ea/716cd1abb755ff3f?hl=fi&lnk=gst&q=outside+the+hourglass+author%3Alsj#716cd1...
It doesn't mention Skin of Night, though...

Aleksi Nuora

6/28/2010 12:26:00 PM

On 28 kesä, 15:15, Vincent <v.rip...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 28 juin, 13:48, Henri K <stealthw...@gmail.com> wrote:> On 28 kesä, 14:46, Henri K <stealthw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You can play Skin of Night when it applies by card text. Since you're
> taking damage in combat, you can play combat cards that relate to how
> damage is handled. So yes, otherwise you won't even be able to prevent
> that damage.
>
> See also Flesh of Marble preventing damage.http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyha......

You are allowed to play Flesh of Marble because it's treated as damage
prevention. I haven't seen anything that would suggest you can play
other types of damage modifiers during damage resolution. For example,
you can't punch for two, wait for your opponent to prevent one with
Hidden Strength and then play Claws of the Dead.

Vincent

6/28/2010 12:37:00 PM

On 28 juin, 14:26, Aleksi Nuora <aleksinu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 28 kesä, 15:15, Vincent <v.rip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 28 juin, 13:48, Henri K <stealthw...@gmail.com> wrote:> On 28 kesä, 14:46, Henri K <stealthw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > You can play Skin of Night when it applies by card text. Since you're
> > taking damage in combat, you can play combat cards that relate to how
> > damage is handled. So yes, otherwise you won't even be able to prevent
> > that damage.
>
> > See also Flesh of Marble preventing damage.http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyha......
>
> You are allowed to play Flesh of Marble because it's treated as damage
> prevention. I haven't seen anything that would suggest you can play
> other types of damage modifiers during damage resolution. For example,
> you can't punch for two, wait for your opponent to prevent one with
> Hidden Strength and then play Claws of the Dead.
Wrong example. You can play Claws, but it wont affect the current
strike resolution since it's already in its prevent step.

You can also play effects that are not prevent effects (RTR 2 dec
2004): http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/vtes-rules/messages/143?threaded=1&m=e&...
(I hope the link is still valid, my proxy blocks it).

See also Art de Combat (if you can read french).
http://www.veknfrance.com/forum/viewtopic.p...

Aleksi Nuora

6/28/2010 12:45:00 PM

On 28 kesä, 15:37, Vincent <v.rip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You can also play effects that are not prevent effects (RTR 2 dec
> 2004):http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/vtes-rules/messages/143......
> (I hope the link is still valid, my proxy blocks it).
>
> See also Art de Combat (if you can read french).http://www.veknfrance.com/forum/viewtopic.p...

Thanks for the link. I wonder if that's up to date, though, as this
very recent ruling seems to contradict it:

> > > (5) Finally, needing a clarification on effects in the pre-range step.
> > > Oops I mean, the Only Usable Before Range Is Determined Pseudo-Step.
> > > This happened in a game and we weren't sure what would happen.
> > > Al-Muntaquim is blocked by Saulot and plays Dawn Operation, so all
> > > damage in combat is aggravated. Al-Muntaquim plays Outside the
> > > Hourglass (Pre-range: Inflict 2 damage). Saulot's controller doesn't
> > > have damage prevention on hand, but plays Weather Control before
> > > resolving the 2 agg effect which would send him to torpor. Is ordering
> > > pre-range effects like this allowed?

> > No. Outside the Hourglass resolves when it in played. Saulot takes 2
> > aggravated damage and goes to torpor without a chance to play other
> > cards (except to prevent the damage or to cancel OtH).

> Correct.

Vincent

6/28/2010 1:07:00 PM

On 28 juin, 14:45, Aleksi Nuora <aleksinu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 28 kesä, 15:37, Vincent <v.rip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > You can also play effects that are not prevent effects (RTR 2 dec
> > 2004):http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/vtes-rules/messages/143......
> > (I hope the link is still valid, my proxy blocks it).
>
> > See also Art de Combat (if you can read french).http://www.veknfrance.com/forum/viewtopic.p...
>
> Thanks for the link. I wonder if that's up to date, though, as this
> very recent ruling seems to contradict it:
>
>
>
> > > > (5) Finally, needing a clarification on effects in the pre-range step.
> > > > Oops I mean, the Only Usable Before Range Is Determined Pseudo-Step.
> > > > This happened in a game and we weren't sure what would happen.
> > > > Al-Muntaquim is blocked by Saulot and plays Dawn Operation, so all
> > > > damage in combat is aggravated. Al-Muntaquim plays Outside the
> > > > Hourglass (Pre-range: Inflict 2 damage). Saulot's controller doesn't
> > > > have damage prevention on hand, but plays Weather Control before
> > > > resolving the 2 agg effect which would send him to torpor. Is ordering
> > > > pre-range effects like this allowed?
> > > No. Outside the Hourglass resolves when it in played. Saulot takes 2
> > > aggravated damage and goes to torpor without a chance to play other
> > > cards (except to prevent the damage or to cancel OtH).
> > Correct.- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -
>
> - Afficher le texte des messages précédents -

There is no contradiction, since Weather Control isn't a card that
applies when taking damage. I think the "(except to prevent the damage
or to cancel OtH)" part is incomplete.
And/or the RTR isn't valid anymore.

LSJ?

Henri K

6/28/2010 8:24:00 PM

On 28 kesä, 15:45, Aleksi Nuora <aleksinu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 28 kesä, 15:37, Vincent <v.rip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > You can also play effects that are not prevent effects (RTR 2 dec
> > 2004):http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/vtes-rules/messages/143......
> > (I hope the link is still valid, my proxy blocks it).
>
> > See also Art de Combat (if you can read french).http://www.veknfrance.com/forum/viewtopic.p...
>
> Thanks for the link. I wonder if that's up to date, though, as this
> very recent ruling seems to contradict it:
>
> > > > (5) Finally, needing a clarification on effects in the pre-range step.
> > > > Oops I mean, the Only Usable Before Range Is Determined Pseudo-Step.
> > > > This happened in a game and we weren't sure what would happen.
> > > > Al-Muntaquim is blocked by Saulot and plays Dawn Operation, so all
> > > > damage in combat is aggravated. Al-Muntaquim plays Outside the
> > > > Hourglass (Pre-range: Inflict 2 damage). Saulot's controller doesn't
> > > > have damage prevention on hand, but plays Weather Control before
> > > > resolving the 2 agg effect which would send him to torpor. Is ordering
> > > > pre-range effects like this allowed?
> > > No. Outside the Hourglass resolves when it in played. Saulot takes 2
> > > aggravated damage and goes to torpor without a chance to play other
> > > cards (except to prevent the damage or to cancel OtH).
> > Correct.

Weather Control just creates an effect that applies to both minions
(and retainers) before range is determined. You can still play SoN as
the reacting minion. OtH actually inflicts damage at the moment it is
played but I still think that if you're able to prevent the damage you
should also be able to play inferior SoN during damage resolution.
Especially since you can play inferior SoN during any other damage
resolution as well.

Blooded Sand

6/28/2010 9:52:00 PM

On Jun 28, 10:23 pm, Henri K <stealthw...@gmail.com> wrote:

> OtH actually inflicts damage at the moment it is
> played but I still think that if you're able to prevent the damage you
> should also be able to play inferior SoN during damage resolution.
> Especially since you can play inferior SoN during any other damage
> resolution as well.

Skin of rock, Rolling at for, any prevent, in fact, that does not say
from a strike, will prevent that damage.
And skin of night and any other card that is playable before range (in
other words, with no other phase limiters on them) can be played then
too.

Aleksi Nuora

6/28/2010 10:53:00 PM

On 28 kesä, 23:23, Henri K <stealthw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Weather Control just creates an effect that applies to both minions
> (and retainers) before range is determined.

Oh, that's right. It's just an effect that needs to resolve at some
moment before the range is determined.

> You can still play SoN as
> the reacting minion.

....but wouldn't the acting minion get to decide when Weather Control
triggers? In other words, he could play Weather Control, some other
effects that he wants to play before range and then decide to resolve
WC before the reacting player gets the impulse.

> OtH actually inflicts damage at the moment it is
> played but I still think that if you're able to prevent the damage you
> should also be able to play inferior SoN during damage resolution.
> Especially since you can play inferior SoN during any other damage
> resolution as well.

Nah, I'm pretty sure it has to be played right before damage
resolution. Somewhere in the same window as Claws of the Dead.

rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

Question about Outside the Hourglass (LSJ

Henri K

Henri K

Vincent

Aleksi Nuora

Aleksi Nuora

Vincent

Aleksi Nuora

Vincent

Henri K

Blooded Sand

Aleksi Nuora

x Login to ForumsZone