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Re: DMA, is it valuable?

Steve Freides

6/13/2016 6:12:00 PM

Tommy Grand wrote:
> Thoughts?
>
> Is it easier to get a faculty job with a PhD, or a DMA.

Yes. When I taught at the local community college, even part-time
faculty were told they had to have a Masters or they risked not being
asked to return - and that's for a crap-paying, completely insecure
position. It is absolutely easier to get _any_ teaching job, even
sitting in your living room giving private lessons, with a DMA or PhD.

You know what they call the person who finished last in his graduate
school class? Doctor. You just have to make it through because it's a
terminal degree, and I should know - getting mine (DMA, Choral
Conducting, SUNY Stony Brook, entered in 1985, awarded degree in 1991,
at age 36) almost killed me. Jerry, regards to David Lawton from me,
please.

> And does it really elevate your playing?

If you use it as a chance to learn and practice a lot without having to
worry about making a living - well, that even just sounds fantastic. If
I didn't have to earn as much as I now have to earn, I'd love to go back
to school and get yet another degree - I always loved being a student,
even if I didn't always love the educational institutions in which I
found myself.

Getting paid to go to graduate school is less common now than it was a
few decades ago, a function of the tight budgets of everything
everywhere.

The answer to your question is easy - yes, it's valuable, but the more
important question is _how_ valuable, and is it worth what the cost
would be to each person and situation.

-S-
42 Answers

Steven Bornfeld

6/13/2016 6:36:00 PM

0

On 6/13/2016 2:12 PM, Steve Freides wrote:
> Tommy Grand wrote:
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Is it easier to get a faculty job with a PhD, or a DMA.
>
> Yes. When I taught at the local community college, even part-time
> faculty were told they had to have a Masters or they risked not being
> asked to return - and that's for a crap-paying, completely insecure
> position. It is absolutely easier to get _any_ teaching job, even
> sitting in your living room giving private lessons, with a DMA or PhD.
>
> You know what they call the person who finished last in his graduate
> school class? Doctor. You just have to make it through because it's a
> terminal degree, and I should know - getting mine (DMA, Choral
> Conducting, SUNY Stony Brook, entered in 1985, awarded degree in 1991,
> at age 36) almost killed me. Jerry, regards to David Lawton from me,
> please.
>
>> And does it really elevate your playing?
>
> If you use it as a chance to learn and practice a lot without having to
> worry about making a living - well, that even just sounds fantastic. If
> I didn't have to earn as much as I now have to earn, I'd love to go back
> to school and get yet another degree - I always loved being a student,
> even if I didn't always love the educational institutions in which I
> found myself.
>
> Getting paid to go to graduate school is less common now than it was a
> few decades ago, a function of the tight budgets of everything
> everywhere.
>
> The answer to your question is easy - yes, it's valuable, but the more
> important question is _how_ valuable, and is it worth what the cost
> would be to each person and situation.
>
> -S-
>
>
>


I assume that most of the conversation here refers to academic
appointments. But most are also talking about performance.
Perhaps musicology and other pedagogical areas related specifically to
guitar would be too narrow. Otherwise, one of the best-known scholars
of the guitar in the U.S. wouldn't be a retired airline pilot.
It's obvious to me that almost all musicians have to cobble together a
career consisting of teaching, writing, and perhaps performance. But
then that's becoming the norm for specialists in almost all the liberal
arts.
The bigger question (for me) is what is becoming of the teaching
profession at the university level. The biggest question is what is to
become of the arts in the digital age.

Steve

dsi1

6/13/2016 6:52:00 PM

0

On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 8:35:45 AM UTC-10, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> On 6/13/2016 2:12 PM, Steve Freides wrote:
> > Tommy Grand wrote:
> >> Thoughts?
> >>
> >> Is it easier to get a faculty job with a PhD, or a DMA.
> >
> > Yes. When I taught at the local community college, even part-time
> > faculty were told they had to have a Masters or they risked not being
> > asked to return - and that's for a crap-paying, completely insecure
> > position. It is absolutely easier to get _any_ teaching job, even
> > sitting in your living room giving private lessons, with a DMA or PhD.
> >
> > You know what they call the person who finished last in his graduate
> > school class? Doctor. You just have to make it through because it's a
> > terminal degree, and I should know - getting mine (DMA, Choral
> > Conducting, SUNY Stony Brook, entered in 1985, awarded degree in 1991,
> > at age 36) almost killed me. Jerry, regards to David Lawton from me,
> > please.
> >
> >> And does it really elevate your playing?
> >
> > If you use it as a chance to learn and practice a lot without having to
> > worry about making a living - well, that even just sounds fantastic. If
> > I didn't have to earn as much as I now have to earn, I'd love to go back
> > to school and get yet another degree - I always loved being a student,
> > even if I didn't always love the educational institutions in which I
> > found myself.
> >
> > Getting paid to go to graduate school is less common now than it was a
> > few decades ago, a function of the tight budgets of everything
> > everywhere.
> >
> > The answer to your question is easy - yes, it's valuable, but the more
> > important question is _how_ valuable, and is it worth what the cost
> > would be to each person and situation.
> >
> > -S-
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> I assume that most of the conversation here refers to academic
> appointments. But most are also talking about performance.
> Perhaps musicology and other pedagogical areas related specifically to
> guitar would be too narrow. Otherwise, one of the best-known scholars
> of the guitar in the U.S. wouldn't be a retired airline pilot.
> It's obvious to me that almost all musicians have to cobble together a
> career consisting of teaching, writing, and perhaps performance. But
> then that's becoming the norm for specialists in almost all the liberal
> arts.
> The bigger question (for me) is what is becoming of the teaching
> profession at the university level. The biggest question is what is to
> become of the arts in the digital age.
>
> Steve

I like you pal, you're always into the big picture. My prediction is that the universities will mostly go on-line and ditch the centers of higher learning concept which requires more funding than students, who will have a lot more options, will be willing to pay.

The arts will change and evolve with technology but there will always remain that core of artists that will understand how to make contact with other humans in a raw, visceral, and direct way - no flow of electrons or digital processing needed.

If your real question is how the arts will be supported by society, I cannot say. Things aren't looking so good at the moment. The good news is that the desire to express ourselves seems to be a fundamental trait of our species. You can't kill it off.

Steven Bornfeld

6/13/2016 7:51:00 PM

0

On 6/13/2016 2:52 PM, dsi1 wrote:
> On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 8:35:45 AM UTC-10, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>> On 6/13/2016 2:12 PM, Steve Freides wrote:
>>> Tommy Grand wrote:
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Is it easier to get a faculty job with a PhD, or a DMA.
>>>
>>> Yes. When I taught at the local community college, even part-time
>>> faculty were told they had to have a Masters or they risked not being
>>> asked to return - and that's for a crap-paying, completely insecure
>>> position. It is absolutely easier to get _any_ teaching job, even
>>> sitting in your living room giving private lessons, with a DMA or PhD.
>>>
>>> You know what they call the person who finished last in his graduate
>>> school class? Doctor. You just have to make it through because it's a
>>> terminal degree, and I should know - getting mine (DMA, Choral
>>> Conducting, SUNY Stony Brook, entered in 1985, awarded degree in 1991,
>>> at age 36) almost killed me. Jerry, regards to David Lawton from me,
>>> please.
>>>
>>>> And does it really elevate your playing?
>>>
>>> If you use it as a chance to learn and practice a lot without having to
>>> worry about making a living - well, that even just sounds fantastic. If
>>> I didn't have to earn as much as I now have to earn, I'd love to go back
>>> to school and get yet another degree - I always loved being a student,
>>> even if I didn't always love the educational institutions in which I
>>> found myself.
>>>
>>> Getting paid to go to graduate school is less common now than it was a
>>> few decades ago, a function of the tight budgets of everything
>>> everywhere.
>>>
>>> The answer to your question is easy - yes, it's valuable, but the more
>>> important question is _how_ valuable, and is it worth what the cost
>>> would be to each person and situation.
>>>
>>> -S-
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> I assume that most of the conversation here refers to academic
>> appointments. But most are also talking about performance.
>> Perhaps musicology and other pedagogical areas related specifically to
>> guitar would be too narrow. Otherwise, one of the best-known scholars
>> of the guitar in the U.S. wouldn't be a retired airline pilot.
>> It's obvious to me that almost all musicians have to cobble together a
>> career consisting of teaching, writing, and perhaps performance. But
>> then that's becoming the norm for specialists in almost all the liberal
>> arts.
>> The bigger question (for me) is what is becoming of the teaching
>> profession at the university level. The biggest question is what is to
>> become of the arts in the digital age.
>>
>> Steve
>
> I like you pal, you're always into the big picture. My prediction is that the universities will mostly go on-line

and ditch the centers of higher learning concept which requires more
funding than students, who will have a lot

more options, will be willing to pay.


But--then what will become of all those expensive football and
basketball programs? Will the coaches be paid by Coursera?
>
> The arts will change and evolve with technology but there will always remain that core of artists that will

understand how to make contact with other humans in a raw, visceral,
and direct way - no flow of electrons or

digital processing needed.
>
> If your real question is how the arts will be supported by society, I cannot say. Things aren't looking so good

at the moment. The good news is that the desire to express ourselves
seems to be a fundamental trait of our species.

You can't kill it off.
>


I'm sure you're right. But arts as a career--yeah, it's not looking
too good to me.

S

dsi1

6/13/2016 8:08:00 PM

0

On 6/13/2016 9:51 AM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> On 6/13/2016 2:52 PM, dsi1 wrote:
>> On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 8:35:45 AM UTC-10, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>>> On 6/13/2016 2:12 PM, Steve Freides wrote:
>>>> Tommy Grand wrote:
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it easier to get a faculty job with a PhD, or a DMA.
>>>>
>>>> Yes. When I taught at the local community college, even part-time
>>>> faculty were told they had to have a Masters or they risked not being
>>>> asked to return - and that's for a crap-paying, completely insecure
>>>> position. It is absolutely easier to get _any_ teaching job, even
>>>> sitting in your living room giving private lessons, with a DMA or PhD.
>>>>
>>>> You know what they call the person who finished last in his graduate
>>>> school class? Doctor. You just have to make it through because it's a
>>>> terminal degree, and I should know - getting mine (DMA, Choral
>>>> Conducting, SUNY Stony Brook, entered in 1985, awarded degree in 1991,
>>>> at age 36) almost killed me. Jerry, regards to David Lawton from me,
>>>> please.
>>>>
>>>>> And does it really elevate your playing?
>>>>
>>>> If you use it as a chance to learn and practice a lot without having to
>>>> worry about making a living - well, that even just sounds
>>>> fantastic. If
>>>> I didn't have to earn as much as I now have to earn, I'd love to go
>>>> back
>>>> to school and get yet another degree - I always loved being a student,
>>>> even if I didn't always love the educational institutions in which I
>>>> found myself.
>>>>
>>>> Getting paid to go to graduate school is less common now than it was a
>>>> few decades ago, a function of the tight budgets of everything
>>>> everywhere.
>>>>
>>>> The answer to your question is easy - yes, it's valuable, but the more
>>>> important question is _how_ valuable, and is it worth what the cost
>>>> would be to each person and situation.
>>>>
>>>> -S-
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I assume that most of the conversation here refers to academic
>>> appointments. But most are also talking about performance.
>>> Perhaps musicology and other pedagogical areas related
>>> specifically to
>>> guitar would be too narrow. Otherwise, one of the best-known scholars
>>> of the guitar in the U.S. wouldn't be a retired airline pilot.
>>> It's obvious to me that almost all musicians have to cobble
>>> together a
>>> career consisting of teaching, writing, and perhaps performance. But
>>> then that's becoming the norm for specialists in almost all the liberal
>>> arts.
>>> The bigger question (for me) is what is becoming of the teaching
>>> profession at the university level. The biggest question is what is to
>>> become of the arts in the digital age.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>
>> I like you pal, you're always into the big picture. My prediction is
>> that the universities will mostly go on-line
>
> and ditch the centers of higher learning concept which requires more
> funding than students, who will have a lot
>
> more options, will be willing to pay.
>
>
> But--then what will become of all those expensive football and
> basketball programs? Will the coaches be paid by Coursera?
>>
>> The arts will change and evolve with technology but there will always
>> remain that core of artists that will
>
> understand how to make contact with other humans in a raw, visceral,
> and direct way - no flow of electrons or
>
> digital processing needed.
>>
>> If your real question is how the arts will be supported by society, I
>> cannot say. Things aren't looking so good
>
> at the moment. The good news is that the desire to express ourselves
> seems to be a fundamental trait of our species.
>
> You can't kill it off.
>>
>
>
> I'm sure you're right. But arts as a career--yeah, it's not looking
> too good to me.
>
> S

I suspect that this has been going on for quite a while. People that
cannot rein in their urge to create and express themselves (like normal
folks) have pretty much hitched their wagons on that star of poverty.

Good thing you got into dentistry. It's always looking good!

Andrew Schulman

6/13/2016 8:23:00 PM

0

On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 3:51:24 PM UTC-4, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> I'm sure you're right. But arts as a career--yeah, it's not looking
> too good to me.
>
> S

When I graduated from college in 1975 and prepared to move to NYC to start a career as a musician many people expressed concern for me, about how hard it would be.

1975 was many many many many times better and easier a time to make a living in music as a working musician, i.e., not a star performer, just a working musician, than it is today.

Andrew

Andrew Schulman

6/13/2016 8:26:00 PM

0

On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 4:23:24 PM UTC-4, Andrew Schulman wrote:
> When I graduated from college in 1975 and prepared to move to NYC to start a career as a musician many people expressed concern for me, about how hard it would be.
>
> 1975 was many many many many times better and easier a time to make a living in music as a working musician, i.e., not a star performer, just a working musician, than it is today.
>
> Andrew

Oh, before I get slammed by Tom G, I am talking about personal experience and specifically about NY. From anecdotal reports, although the competition has always been stiffest for classical music and jazz in the NY as far as the U.S., there was always at least more work here. I don't know the comparison to places outside the U.S.

Andrew

Steve Freides

6/13/2016 8:39:00 PM

0

Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> On 6/13/2016 2:12 PM, Steve Freides wrote:
>> Tommy Grand wrote:
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Is it easier to get a faculty job with a PhD, or a DMA.
>>
>> Yes. When I taught at the local community college, even part-time
>> faculty were told they had to have a Masters or they risked not being
>> asked to return - and that's for a crap-paying, completely insecure
>> position. It is absolutely easier to get _any_ teaching job, even
>> sitting in your living room giving private lessons, with a DMA or
>> PhD. You know what they call the person who finished last in his
>> graduate
>> school class? Doctor. You just have to make it through because
>> it's a terminal degree, and I should know - getting mine (DMA, Choral
>> Conducting, SUNY Stony Brook, entered in 1985, awarded degree in
>> 1991, at age 36) almost killed me. Jerry, regards to David Lawton
>> from me, please.
>>
>>> And does it really elevate your playing?
>>
>> If you use it as a chance to learn and practice a lot without having
>> to worry about making a living - well, that even just sounds
>> fantastic. If I didn't have to earn as much as I now have to earn,
>> I'd love to go back to school and get yet another degree - I always
>> loved being a student, even if I didn't always love the educational
>> institutions in which I found myself.
>>
>> Getting paid to go to graduate school is less common now than it was
>> a few decades ago, a function of the tight budgets of everything
>> everywhere.
>>
>> The answer to your question is easy - yes, it's valuable, but the
>> more important question is _how_ valuable, and is it worth what the
>> cost would be to each person and situation.
>>
>> -S-
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> I assume that most of the conversation here refers to academic
> appointments. But most are also talking about performance.
> Perhaps musicology and other pedagogical areas related specifically to
> guitar would be too narrow. Otherwise, one of the best-known scholars
> of the guitar in the U.S. wouldn't be a retired airline pilot.

When people are looking for a good private music teacher for their
child, they still appreciate the teacher's education. The scholar who
is a retired airline is an exception, not the rule, and the guitar as an
instrument also doesn't always play by the normal rules when compared to
other instruments.

> It's obvious to me that almost all musicians have to cobble together a
> career consisting of teaching, writing, and perhaps performance. But
> then that's becoming the norm for specialists in almost all the
> liberal arts.

Cobbled together is perjorative; while I perform and I teach, I love all
the things I do and would much rather be doing all of them than having a
single job. I taught college for a while and, frankly, I got bored.
And I worked in computers for a decade in the middle of my career and
also got bored. Maybe I have ADD, but I got to do a wide variety of
things I enjoyed in the past week - I played a piano reduction of an
Off-Broadway show for 4 performances, I played standards on piano all
afternoon on Saturday at a fund-raiser for the church where I played
organ and led the choir on Sunday, I taught lessons on a bunch of
different instruments, including playing some Carulli classical guitar
duets with a student of mine.

> The bigger question (for me) is what is becoming of the teaching
> profession at the university level. The biggest question is what is
> to become of the arts in the digital age.

In the end, it boils down to what we're willing to pay for, and that, in
the end, seems to boil down to how we're doing, economically, as a
society. The arts are considered a luxury, unfortunately.

> Steve

> Steve

> Steve

and

> Steve

Steven Bornfeld

6/13/2016 8:51:00 PM

0

On 6/13/2016 4:25 PM, Andrew Schulman wrote:
>
> Oh, before I get slammed by Tom G, I am talking about personal experience and specifically about NY. From anecdotal

reports, although the competition has always been stiffest for
classical music and jazz in the NY as far as the U.S.,

there was always at least more work here. I don't know the comparison
to places outside the U.S.
>
> Andrew
>

I know I knew (in the '70s and '80s) quite a few working musicians--club
dates, Broadway pit orchestras/bands, and between regular or semiregular
gigs and teaching in between, they could keep busy.
Obviously things look much worse now. But occasionally there's a
surprise--saw the Miami City Ballet at Lincoln Center a month or so ago,
and there was a real live breathing orchestra. It was a great reminder
of how things used to be.

Steve

Steven Bornfeld

6/13/2016 9:01:00 PM

0

On 6/13/2016 4:38 PM, Steve Freides wrote:
> When people are looking for a good private music teacher for their
> child, they still appreciate the teacher's education. The scholar who
> is a retired airline is an exception, not the rule, and the guitar as an
> instrument also doesn't always play by the normal rules when compared to
> other instruments.
>
>> It's obvious to me that almost all musicians have to cobble together a
>> career consisting of teaching, writing, and perhaps performance. But
>> then that's becoming the norm for specialists in almost all the
>> liberal arts.
>
> Cobbled together is perjorative;


I certainly meant no disrespect; I see it as being enterprising and
resourceful. I also taught for a couple of years--it was fun and a
great break away from the office.


while I perform and I teach, I love all
> the things I do and would much rather be doing all of them than having a
> single job. I taught college for a while and, frankly, I got bored.
> And I worked in computers for a decade in the middle of my career and
> also got bored. Maybe I have ADD, but I got to do a wide variety of
> things I enjoyed in the past week - I played a piano reduction of an
> Off-Broadway show for 4 performances, I played standards on piano all
> afternoon on Saturday at a fund-raiser for the church where I played
> organ and led the choir on Sunday, I taught lessons on a bunch of
> different instruments, including playing some Carulli classical guitar
> duets with a student of mine.
>
>> The bigger question (for me) is what is becoming of the teaching
>> profession at the university level. The biggest question is what is
>> to become of the arts in the digital age.
>
> In the end, it boils down to what we're willing to pay for, and that, in
> the end, seems to boil down to how we're doing, economically, as a
> society. The arts are considered a luxury, unfortunately.

I don't know. People find a way to buy luxury cars, pay insane prices
for real estate, get deep in debt for education.
Of course, you're close enough to my age to remember what tickets to
live performances cost in the '70s--not only classical, but jazz and
pop. That goes for Broadway too. I'm sure the price for a ticket at a
concert hall or theater has gone up more rapidly than inflation. That
money is going somewhere, but I doubt it's to the performers (except at
the very top of the food chain).

>
>> Steve
>
>> Steve
>
>> Steve
>
> and
>
>> Steve
>
>
Steve

Dick Cheney

6/13/2016 10:30:00 PM

0

On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 3:38:48 PM UTC-5, Steve Freides wrote:
> Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> > On 6/13/2016 2:12 PM, Steve Freides wrote:
> >> Tommy Grand wrote:
> >>> Thoughts?
> >>>
> >>> Is it easier to get a faculty job with a PhD, or a DMA.
> >>
> >> Yes. When I taught at the local community college, even part-time
> >> faculty were told they had to have a Masters or they risked not being
> >> asked to return - and that's for a crap-paying, completely insecure
> >> position. It is absolutely easier to get _any_ teaching job, even
> >> sitting in your living room giving private lessons, with a DMA or
> >> PhD. You know what they call the person who finished last in his
> >> graduate
> >> school class? Doctor. You just have to make it through because
> >> it's a terminal degree, and I should know - getting mine (DMA, Choral
> >> Conducting, SUNY Stony Brook, entered in 1985, awarded degree in
> >> 1991, at age 36) almost killed me. Jerry, regards to David Lawton
> >> from me, please.
> >>
> >>> And does it really elevate your playing?
> >>
> >> If you use it as a chance to learn and practice a lot without having
> >> to worry about making a living - well, that even just sounds
> >> fantastic. If I didn't have to earn as much as I now have to earn,
> >> I'd love to go back to school and get yet another degree - I always
> >> loved being a student, even if I didn't always love the educational
> >> institutions in which I found myself.
> >>
> >> Getting paid to go to graduate school is less common now than it was
> >> a few decades ago, a function of the tight budgets of everything
> >> everywhere.
> >>
> >> The answer to your question is easy - yes, it's valuable, but the
> >> more important question is _how_ valuable, and is it worth what the
> >> cost would be to each person and situation.
> >>
> >> -S-
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > I assume that most of the conversation here refers to academic
> > appointments. But most are also talking about performance.
> > Perhaps musicology and other pedagogical areas related specifically to
> > guitar would be too narrow. Otherwise, one of the best-known scholars
> > of the guitar in the U.S. wouldn't be a retired airline pilot.
>
> When people are looking for a good private music teacher for their
> child, they still appreciate the teacher's education. The scholar who
> is a retired airline is an exception, not the rule, and the guitar as an
> instrument also doesn't always play by the normal rules when compared to
> other instruments.
>
> > It's obvious to me that almost all musicians have to cobble together a
> > career consisting of teaching, writing, and perhaps performance. But
> > then that's becoming the norm for specialists in almost all the
> > liberal arts.
>
> Cobbled together is perjorative; while I perform and I teach, I love all
> the things I do and would much rather be doing all of them than having a
> single job. I taught college for a while and, frankly, I got bored.
> And I worked in computers for a decade in the middle of my career and
> also got bored. Maybe I have ADD, but I got to do a wide variety of
> things I enjoyed in the past week - I played a piano reduction of an
> Off-Broadway show for 4 performances, I played standards on piano all
> afternoon on Saturday at a fund-raiser for the church where I played
> organ and led the choir on Sunday, I taught lessons on a bunch of
> different instruments, including playing some Carulli classical guitar
> duets with a student of mine.
>
> > The bigger question (for me) is what is becoming of the teaching
> > profession at the university level. The biggest question is what is
> > to become of the arts in the digital age.
>
> In the end, it boils down to what we're willing to pay for, and that, in
> the end, seems to boil down to how we're doing, economically, as a
> society. The arts are considered a luxury, unfortunately.
>
> > Steve
>
> > Steve
>
> > Steve
>
> and
>
> > Steve

Yes, but as parent of 4 kids who takes these things more seriously than most, a bachelor's degree is fine for little Roscoe. If he becomes more serious about his studies so do credentials